Assetto Corsa PC Mods General DiscussionPC

[jac0]

Was someone asking recently why shadows noticeably pop in when driving down long straights?
Might not have been here.
But anyway, increase this third number until they don't.

View attachment 1390785

hi , can someone explain these 3 values please? (Why don't these things come with a tooltip explanation??

Unfortunately the last digit does not increase the range (distance from the car) until where shadows are rendered in details

these are my settings:

I can clearly see that the shadows become less detailed approx 20m in front of my car... )

increasing the last number to 2000 as Masscot suggested,
still the detailed render distance seems same, but after that the shadows are no longer rendered at all ... so it got worse instead of improved:

EDIT: in fact LOWERING this number seems to have the desired effect!

EDIT2 : and yet the same settings don't seem to fix it on all tracks! For example on Charlotte Motor Speedway Oval , I still get blurry shadows after some distance:

EDIT3:
it seemed to me the best solution is to disable Smart Shadows altogether... but then I am faced again with this disturbing shadow issue of the shadows only being drawn in front, and when looking to the side, you can see the shadows are not drawn there :

So please WHAT are good settings for having realistic shadows (that don't cut off anywhere too obvious) ?

 

[ClimaxF1]

Hi Guys

This car was recommended to me a few years back by @Fanapryde , still one of my favorite cars to race around.

In my opinion this is the best mod in it's class including all street variants and other mods, just feels and sounds awesome!

Interior needed some updates so have added my touch a bit

Installation:

- You need to have the eatc_bmw_220i car mod installed first

- Car download link in my download

- Copy textures in Interior_update folder into each skins folder


Update details v1.2:

Whilst updating a track have been using this car, although I did update this car already, decided to step it up a bit as per my other interior update mods. This is a complete rework of the interior with new textures.

• New alcnt_nm texture and upscaled
• New bmw_logo and upscaled
• New cabin_ao and upscaled
• Reworked cabin_map and upscaled
• New cockpit_belt texture and upscaled
• New cockpit_belt_door texture and upscaled
• Interior decals reworked and upscaled
• New leather texture and upscaled
• New leather_nm texture and upscaled
• New leather2 texture and upscaled
• New leather2_nm texture and upscaled
• Exterior lights textures reworked and upscaled
• New MAT_Carbon texture and upscaled
• New MAT_Carbon_nm texture and upscaled
• Reworked mat_metal_grey texture
• Reworked mat_metal_white texture
• Reworked mat_plastic_black texture
• Reworked mat_plastic_grey texture
• Reworked mat_rubber_dark texture
• Reworked mat_stainless texture and upscaled
• Reworked MAT_white texture
• Reworked metal_detail texture
• Reworked parts_d texture and upscaled
• Reworked pedals texture and upscaled
• Reworked PlasticDetail texture and upscaled
• Reworked RearLigth_glass and upscaled
• New scratches texture and upscaled
• New red stiches texture added to steering wheel and upscaled

BMW 220i Complete Interior texture update

Hi Guys This car was recommended to me a few years back by @Fanapryde , still one of my favorite cars to race around. In my opinion this is the best mod in it's class including all street variants and other mods, just feels and sounds awesome...

www.overtake.gg

 

[Rodger Davies]

Anyone know what this is?

Try turning the glowing exhaust FX thing off

 

[jac0]

Hi Guys

This car was recommended to me a few years back by @Fanapryde , still one of my favorite cars to race around.

In my opinion this is the best mod in it's class including all street variants and other mods, just feels and sounds awesome!

Interior needed some updates so have added my touch a bit

Installation:

- You need to have the eatc_bmw_220i car mod installed first

- Car download link in my download

- Copy textures in Interior_update folder into each skins folder


Update details v1.2:

Whilst updating a track have been using this car, although I did update this car already, decided to step it up a bit as per my other interior update mods. This is a complete rework of the interior with new textures.

• New alcnt_nm texture and upscaled
• New bmw_logo and upscaled
• New cabin_ao and upscaled
• Reworked cabin_map and upscaled
• New cockpit_belt texture and upscaled
• New cockpit_belt_door texture and upscaled
• Interior decals reworked and upscaled
• New leather texture and upscaled
• New leather_nm texture and upscaled
• New leather2 texture and upscaled
• New leather2_nm texture and upscaled
• Exterior lights textures reworked and upscaled
• New MAT_Carbon texture and upscaled
• New MAT_Carbon_nm texture and upscaled
• Reworked mat_metal_grey texture
• Reworked mat_metal_white texture
• Reworked mat_plastic_black texture
• Reworked mat_plastic_grey texture
• Reworked mat_rubber_dark texture
• Reworked mat_stainless texture and upscaled
• Reworked MAT_white texture
• Reworked metal_detail texture
• Reworked parts_d texture and upscaled
• Reworked pedals texture and upscaled
• Reworked PlasticDetail texture and upscaled
• Reworked RearLigth_glass and upscaled
• New scratches texture and upscaled
• New red stiches texture added to steering wheel and upscaled

View attachment 1390887
View attachment 1390847View attachment 1390851View attachment 1390863

BMW 220i Complete Interior texture update

Hi Guys This car was recommended to me a few years back by @Fanapryde , still one of my favorite cars to race around. In my opinion this is the best mod in it's class including all street variants and other mods, just feels and sounds awesome...

www.overtake.gg

this is all good and well , but the brakelights are no longer distinguishable when lights are on (without having to resort to turning PP Effects on), so it's no fav+ in my book...

 

[Peter Boese]

hi , can someone explain these 3 values please? (Why don't these things come with a tooltip explanation??

Unfortunately the last digit does not increase the range (distance from the car) until where shadows are rendered in details

these are my settings:
View attachment 1390845
I can clearly see that the shadows become less detailed approx 20m in front of my car... )
View attachment 1390846

increasing the last number to 2000 as Masscot suggested,
still the detailed render distance seems same, but after that the shadows are no longer rendered at all ... so it got worse instead of improved:

View attachment 1390872



EDIT: in fact LOWERING this number seems to have the desired effect!

View attachment 1390873
View attachment 1390874

EDIT2 : and yet the same settings don't seem to fix it on all tracks! For example on Charlotte Motor Speedway Oval , I still get blurry shadows after some distance:
View attachment 1390886

EDIT3:
it seemed to me the best solution is to disable Smart Shadows altogether... but then I am faced again with this disturbing shadow issue of the shadows only being drawn in front, and when looking to the side, you can see the shadows are not drawn there :
View attachment 1390892

So please WHAT are good settings for having realistic shadows (that don't cut off anywhere too obvious) ?

You can't have superp settings for all situations with these 3 values!!!

Those are the distances of the shadow cascades.

So in AC the shadows, or better the shadows resolution, or better the resulution of the sun light processing on track objects is splitted into 3 or 4 parts. Also the resolution within such a cascade is dynamic, dependend on the range from one to another cascade.

So the first one (the nearest one) has the biggest resolution. It is the resulotion you set for the shadows in the AC video settings.

So the higher a value is there, the more distant the next shadow cascade is, but you will also lower resolution if you widen the cascade distance.

So the quality of shadows in AC is always balanced to reduce the load on the GPU.

You can set it very high quality, but only with the cost of being very rough in the distance or vise versa.

The only way to have overall superb quality is to set the 3rd value very big and set shadows resolution to the highest possible.


And you have many many optimization methods in AC to bypass the shadows rendering, because it is always heavy. So you might see sudden unshadowed things out of a certain FOV.


So sunlight light processing is the most GPU heavy render thing and thats why there are so many methods to minimize the load.
Because noone will understand it, that for good shadows your fps will massively go down.

Here are settings for very good shadows:

But with a very high GPU load!

 

[Breathe]

Unfortunately no working links for rj_spa_1938, rj_spa_34_66, rj_spa66 and spa_2022.

All links for the tracks you mentionned are working

 

[andrevr]

Hi Guys

This car was recommended to me a few years back by @Fanapryde , still one of my favorite cars to race around.

In my opinion this is the best mod in it's class including all street variants and other mods, just feels and sounds awesome!

Interior needed some updates so have added my touch a bit

Installation:

- You need to have the eatc_bmw_220i car mod installed first

- Car download link in my download

- Copy textures in Interior_update folder into each skins folder


Update details v1.2:

Whilst updating a track have been using this car, although I did update this car already, decided to step it up a bit as per my other interior update mods. This is a complete rework of the interior with new textures.

• New alcnt_nm texture and upscaled
• New bmw_logo and upscaled
• New cabin_ao and upscaled
• Reworked cabin_map and upscaled
• New cockpit_belt texture and upscaled
• New cockpit_belt_door texture and upscaled
• Interior decals reworked and upscaled
• New leather texture and upscaled
• New leather_nm texture and upscaled
• New leather2 texture and upscaled
• New leather2_nm texture and upscaled
• Exterior lights textures reworked and upscaled
• New MAT_Carbon texture and upscaled
• New MAT_Carbon_nm texture and upscaled
• Reworked mat_metal_grey texture
• Reworked mat_metal_white texture
• Reworked mat_plastic_black texture
• Reworked mat_plastic_grey texture
• Reworked mat_rubber_dark texture
• Reworked mat_stainless texture and upscaled
• Reworked MAT_white texture
• Reworked metal_detail texture
• Reworked parts_d texture and upscaled
• Reworked pedals texture and upscaled
• Reworked PlasticDetail texture and upscaled
• Reworked RearLigth_glass and upscaled
• New scratches texture and upscaled
• New red stiches texture added to steering wheel and upscaled

View attachment 1390887
View attachment 1390847View attachment 1390851View attachment 1390863

BMW 220i Complete Interior texture update

Hi Guys This car was recommended to me a few years back by @Fanapryde , still one of my favorite cars to race around. In my opinion this is the best mod in it's class including all street variants and other mods, just feels and sounds awesome...

www.overtake.gg

This is indeed a lovely-to-drive little bolide.
And your texture update is a significant visual upgrade.
Double thanks are due!


For everyone... Just curious. This is/was a fictional championship, right? The EurAsian Touring Car Championship?
Neither web search, nor AI research returns anything useful. Except that our mate @Toonces created a slew of setups for different tracks. Seems like the 220i was a baseline model, never was an M220i, nor a GT4?
Car certainly drives like a M GT4 ito authority, agree with @Toonces, perhaps a smidge TOO grippy.

Great fun whatever the truth.

 

[Triplexbee]

You can't have superp settings for all situations with these 3 values!!!

Those are the distances of the shadow cascades.

So in AC the shadows, or better the shadows resolution, or better the resulution of the sun light processing on track objects is splitted into 3 or 4 parts. Also the resolution within such a cascade is dynamic, dependend on the range from one to another cascade.

So the first one (the nearest one) has the biggest resolution. It is the resulotion you set for the shadows in the AC video settings.

So the higher a value is there, the more distant the next shadow cascade is, but you will also lower resolution if you widen the cascade distance.

View attachment 1390918

So the quality of shadows in AC is always balanced to reduce the load on the GPU.

You can set it very high quality, but only with the cost of being very rough in the distance or vise versa.

The only way to have overall superb quality is to set the 3rd value very big and set shadows resolution to the highest possible.


And you have many many optimization methods in AC to bypass the shadows rendering, because it is always heavy. So you might see sudden unshadowed things out of a certain FOV.


So sunlight light processing is the most GPU heavy render thing and thats why there are so many methods to minimize the load.
Because noone will understand it, that for good shadows your fps will massively go down.

Here are settings for very good shadows:
View attachment 1390924
View attachment 1390925

But with a very high GPU load!

View attachment 1390926

Yes, these are close to the settings I settled on and posted earlier. I run 4096X and don't see that much load or much less quality than 8192. Maybe due to my 3rd split being much closer @ 250m.

 

[Ararelyracer]

Hi All, I don't seem to be able to find the answer to this online. I have follow Kunos car's brake disc shader setting for the brake disc for my mod, but I do not get why even when the car is stationary, the brake discs were blurred as shown below:

Shader Settings:

and I have only added the burred texture to the txBlur slot. Anyone can kindly explain why? Thanks!

 

[Peter Boese]

Yes, these are close to the settings I settled on and posted earlier. I run 4096X and don't see that much load or much less quality than 8192. Maybe due to my 3rd split being much closer @ 250m.

The real load comes with low sunangles.
You can compare the load with CSP render stats app and you can switch shadow resolutions ingame with the video mode app. There you see the bigger load. Its a direct and linear load progression. There is no magic behind it. If you have shadows at 4096x4096 it will use 4x the load like 2048x2048.

Also you always need to check for the pop-in/pop-out shadows. Like at tracks with hills, set a low sunangle and drive around the track. Only with a high 3rd value you will prevent those shadows fluctuations.

 

[The Vampire]

it seemed to me the best solution is to disable Smart Shadows altogether... but then I am faced again with this disturbing shadow issue of the shadows only being drawn in front, and when looking to the side, you can see the shadows are not drawn there :
View attachment 1390892

So please WHAT are good settings for having realistic shadows (that don't cut off anywhere too obvious) ?

I don't have that problem, but you can change this in Smart Shadows. Search for "Look Direction" in Custom Shadow Matrices.
If you play in VR like me this should be set to "Don't use in VR".

 

[Alis_70]

Strange that a simple mesh adjustment destroyed the windshield wiper. But it is possible that there is really something wrong with the csp: on the z3 I had to create two separate models because I could not insert the gtr rims (every shadows disappeared). Maybe some scripts stopped working. Consider that the wiper was coded almost at the beginning.. time will tell. 🧐

in the skin ext_config, if I replace number of "[MESH_ADJUSTMENT_X] (X is number 0/1/2/3) by [MESH_ADJUSTMENT_...]" wiper is working.

other issue, I have very low power of braking, I tried with and without extended physics without succes.

EDIT : I think it's because you haven't anything about ABS on the electronics.ini file
IF you add this below it's Ok (maybe settings aren't accurate) :

[ABS]
SLIP_RATIO_LIMIT=0.17
CURVE=
PRESENT=0
ACTIVE=0
RATE_HZ=58

 

[wolf4263]

Just had a pop-up in CM, Data Update 185. What does this mean? Is it CM? Custom Shaders Patch? or something else?

 

[MS6Driver]

Hi All, I don't seem to be able to find the answer to this online. I have follow Kunos car's brake disc shader setting for the brake disc for my mod, but I do not get why even when the car is stationary, the brake discs were blurred as shown below:
View attachment 1390928
Shader Settings:
View attachment 1390929
and I have only added the burred texture to the txBlur slot. Anyone can kindly explain why? Thanks!

They dont seem blurred on the Image. This how used discs will look 👍🏻

 

[Greg_ST]

The first livery skin is done and the AO map is fixed as much as I could

 

[alexfre]

Hey everyone, I recently updated CSP and went to race at Mike08's Lienz track and got a crash: "Failed to allocate GPU memory" - after doing some research it looks like an update in CSP changed the way camera_facing.ini loads and causes this crash. So far this is the only circuit to have this problem.

Any ideas on how I can fix this issue so I can run this track?

same problem in some circuits, csp 0.2.5P1 .
I have not found any solution for now.

 

[Fanapryde]

in the skin ext_config, if I replace number of "[MESH_ADJUSTMENT_X] (X is number 0/1/2/3) by [MESH_ADJUSTMENT_...]" wiper is working.

other issue, I have very low power of braking, I tried with and without extended physics without succes.

EDIT : I think it's because you haven't anything about ABS on the electronics.ini file
IF you add this below it's Ok (maybe settings aren't accurate) :

[ABS]
SLIP_RATIO_LIMIT=0.17
CURVE=
PRESENT=0
ACTIVE=0
RATE_HZ=58

Afaik this (and all other GT1 cars) did not have ABS, right ?

 

[FrustratedUse]

Afaik this (and all other GT1 cars) did not have ABS, right ?

GT1 cars did not feature ABS or TCS

 

[Alis_70]

Afaik this (and all other GT1 cars) did not have ABS, right ?

I don't really know, but I think with this setting PRESENT=0 / ACTIVE=0 car haven't ABS ingame ?!

 

[JK1977]

Released : Dodge Chager STR8 GR.3 (Fictional Race Car)
Author:F302
3D Model :The Crew2
Texture Update : F302 (rework)
Skins: F302
3d work: F302
Lod´s: ACTK
Tweaks:ACTK
hope u enjoy the Car
ps : send feedback ,bugs ,missing things
tested on CSP 0.2.5-preview1
PP filer PURELIFE_EVO
have fun!
To install, move folders to "...\SteamApps\common\assettocorsa" or simply
drag'n'drop archive to Content Manager

72.13 MB file on MEGA

mega.nz

 

[Young78]

Ferrari 500 Mondial Pinin Farina Coupe(v1.0) by F40 LM Lover

It is tested in CSP 2.5 Preview1
You need CSP latest Version

1. 3d Model
1) Based on Gran Turismo 7 by Poly Pony Digital
2) Some Parts are from Forza Horizon 4
3) Converted by F40 LM Lover
2. Features
1) Exterior Animations
-. Left Door : Extra A
-. Right Door : Extra B
-. MOTOR Hood Open : Extra C
-. Quarter Window Open : Extra D
-. Fog Lights : Extra F
2) Interior Animations
-. GAS, Brake, Clutch Pedal with Feet : Don't need Key assign
-. Trun Signal Switch with Arm & Hand : need Key Assign
-. Lighting Signal Switch with Arm & Hand : need Key Assign
-. Windows Open with Arm & Hand
-. Fog Light with Arm & hand
-. H-Pattern Shifter with Arm & Hand
-. Horn With Arm & Hand
3. Physics : F40 LM Lover
4. Sounds : Kunos' 250 GTO
5. Download Link is in the description of video.

 

[sab001]

The real load comes with low sunangles.
You can compare the load with CSP render stats app and you can switch shadow resolutions ingame with the video mode app. There you see the bigger load. Its a direct and linear load progression. There is no magic behind it. If you have shadows at 4096x4096 it will use 4x the load like 2048x2048.

Also you always need to check for the pop-in/pop-out shadows. Like at tracks with hills, set a low sunangle and drive around the track. Only with a high 3rd value you will prevent those shadows fluctuations.

With your suggested settings I no longer see the cascade split anywhere even with late day long shadows. I'm using 4096 shadows and it looks great. Thanks!

edit: I found a few places where the split is still evident but it's *closer to me in cockpit view but seems less imposing (perhaps depending on how far I'm looking ahead?)

 

[GT3Masters97]

in the skin ext_config, if I replace number of "[MESH_ADJUSTMENT_X] (X is number 0/1/2/3) by [MESH_ADJUSTMENT_...]" wiper is working.

other issue, I have very low power of braking, I tried with and without extended physics without succes.

EDIT : I think it's because you haven't anything about ABS on the electronics.ini file
IF you add this below it's Ok (maybe settings aren't accurate) :

[ABS]
SLIP_RATIO_LIMIT=0.17
CURVE=
PRESENT=0
ACTIVE=0
RATE_HZ=58

Afaik this (and all other GT1 cars) did not have ABS, right ?

GT1 cars did not feature ABS or TCS

GT1 class does not have abs or tcs. I think ChemFlummi did not include them for this reason

I'll take into account what was said about the mesh adjustment, at least this way I won't have to redo the windshield wipers from scratch again LOL


Now a little question: since I switched to pure LCS and the new CSP I have all these graphic artifacts (lights and reflections with every PP-Filter I have). Does anyone know what causes them?

 

[jac0]

You can't have superp settings for all situations with these 3 values!!!

Those are the distances of the shadow cascades.

So in AC the shadows, or better the shadows resolution, or better the resulution of the sun light processing on track objects is splitted into 3 or 4 parts. Also the resolution within such a cascade is dynamic, dependend on the range from one to another cascade.

So the first one (the nearest one) has the biggest resolution. It is the resulotion you set for the shadows in the AC video settings.

So the higher a value is there, the more distant the next shadow cascade is, but you will also lower resolution if you widen the cascade distance.

View attachment 1390918

So the quality of shadows in AC is always balanced to reduce the load on the GPU.

You can set it very high quality, but only with the cost of being very rough in the distance or vise versa.

The only way to have overall superb quality is to set the 3rd value very big and set shadows resolution to the highest possible.


And you have many many optimization methods in AC to bypass the shadows rendering, because it is always heavy. So you might see sudden unshadowed things out of a certain FOV.


So sunlight light processing is the most GPU heavy render thing and thats why there are so many methods to minimize the load.
Because noone will understand it, that for good shadows your fps will massively go down.

Here are settings for very good shadows:
View attachment 1390924
View attachment 1390925

But with a very high GPU load!

View attachment 1390926

thank you Peter for that great explanation!
I will play around with it and land on a comfortable middle ground...

Cheers and have a good weekend!

 

[demankz]

The first livery skin is done and the AO map is fixed as much as I could
View attachment 1390954View attachment 1390956View attachment 1390957View attachment 1390958

Thank you so much for this work, I can't wait for you to release it, I don't know why but I like it the most out of all the Nissan GN500

 

[Cote Dazur]

Ferrari 500 Mondial

Pininfarina​

Coupe(v1.0) by F40 LM Lover

It is tested in CSP 2.5 Preview1
You need CSP latest Version

Thank you @F40LM for releasing such great car, which might have been tested in 2.5, but works flawlessly in 2.4 preview211.(looking at you URD!)
Thank you so much for the impeccable driver animation:
2) Interior Animations
-. GAS, Brake, Clutch Pedal with Feet : Don't need Key assign
-. Trun Signal Switch with Arm & Hand : need Key Assign
-. Lighting Signal Switch with Arm & Hand : need Key Assign
-. Windows Open with Arm & Hand
-. Fog Light with Arm & hand
-. H-Pattern Shifter with Arm & Hand
-. Horn With Arm & Hand
The second this week, not sure if it is a new trend, I hope it is, but as a VR driver, it is very much appreciated and makes AC feel so 2025.

 

[andrevr]

GT1 class does not have abs or tcs. I think ChemFlummi did not include them for this reason

I'll take into account what was said about the mesh adjustment, at least this way I won't have to redo the windshield wipers from scratch again LOL


Now a little question: since I switched to pure LCS and the new CSP I have all these graphic artifacts (lights and reflections with every PP-Filter I have). Does anyone know what causes them?



View attachment 1391018

Not a fizix expert, but I don't believe the electronic.ini should ever be left blank, no matter how opinionated the modder/driver is about <clarkson-anorak-voice>XYZ CAR DID NOT HAVE ABS!!</clarkson-anorak-voice>.

There are driving modes which activate ABS by default. If the electronics.ini is deliberately left blank, at game time the AC engine could be left in an indeterminate state, because the entries required to process ABS simply aren't there. Symptoms are typically a 0.5s period oscillation of the steering (particularly on older non-DD wheels) and a non-responsive brake pedal. This can be fixed at the setup screen by manually turning ABS off (every.time.you.drive.the.car) Ask me how I know

If the electronics is populated, the values will be used, and PRESENT and ACTIVE parameters will be respected. If these are both set to zero (=0) the ABS will automagically be turned off correctly, no matter what the driving mode is set to. Ditto for TRACTION CONTROL/EDL.

I have yet to experiment with culling the other parameters in the file if PRESENT and ACTIVE set to 0, to see if anything catches fire. Soon

CC: @Alis_70 @Fanapryde @FrustratedUse

 

[ClimaxF1]

this is all good and well , but the brakelights are no longer distinguishable when lights are on (without having to resort to turning PP Effects on), so it's no fav+ in my book...

Not sure what is causing the problem on your side but definetely don't have this problem

Are you not supposed to have PP effects on, could be wrong but not sure why you have it off

 

[GT3Masters97]

Not a fizix expert, but I don't believe the electronic.ini should ever be left blank, no matter how opinionated the modder/driver is about <clarkson-anorak-voice>XYZ CAR DID NOT HAVE ABS!!</clarkson-anorak-voice>.

There are driving modes which activate ABS by default. If the electronics.ini is deliberately left blank, at game time the AC engine could be left in an indeterminate state, because the entries required to process ABS simply aren't there. Symptoms are typically a 0.5s period oscillation of the steering (particularly on older non-DD wheels) and a non-responsive brake pedal. This can be fixed at the setup screen by manually turning ABS off (every.time.you.drive.the.car) Ask me how I know

If the electronics is populated, the values will be used, and PRESENT and ACTIVE parameters will be respected. If these are both set to zero (=0) the ABS will automagically be turned off correctly, no matter what the driving mode is set to. Ditto for TRACTION CONTROL/EDL.

I have yet to experiment with culling the other parameters in the file if PRESENT and ACTIVE set to 0, to see if anything catches fire. Soon

CC: @Alis_70 @Fanapryde @FrustratedUse

I mentioned chem simply because he took care of the physics. But all these little fixes will be added in a mini update soon

 

[MasterFocus]

Been having this "problem" for a while now, might not be the only one...
SkidmarkFX, before the skidmarks would stay for days, giving character to tracks. Now they disapear every time I restart my PC??
Not a game breaker tho, but would be nice to get it back like it was before...