Future Of Gran Turismo (Discussion)

[JHB434]

I still think at the rate PD is going, it will be a blank disc when released with promises of any actual content to be delivered in the future.

 

[Zuku]

I still think at the rate PD is going, it will be a blank disc when released with promises of any actual content to be delivered in the future.

The day comes we pay $60 for a disc and then $10 to unlock extra content thing gaming will be dead in the water, and someone(probably Nintendo) has to revive it again.

Heck we're almost there at the rate we're going.

 

[mr_serious]

The really sad thing is, I don't think I even care anymore what they do with GT7 after GT5 & GT6

However, all I can do is look back at past performances in order to determine how they might perform in the future:

We were promised a radical AI overhaul for GT5 - and the AI turned out to be a slightly tweaked version of the same old AI which was just barely adequate in GT1 with a digital controller. Then GT6 made it even worse.

Considering that as the years have passed GT has become much less about racing and more about dressing barbie dolls and acquiring trophies.

License tests became less important, but 'races' became more like license tests.

Moving from a more realistic economic constraint and reward system to an arcade level unlock system.

Reusing much loved but sub-standard assets on newer hardware.

Delayed games, delayed features, incomplete features, woefully implemented features.

Decreasing options in how to play the game...

Pushing the limits of the graphics at the expense of game play and playability.

Adding features very few people care about, or in some cases can even make use of, while not fixing any of the above problems. etc... etc... etc...


The only announcement I have seen about GT7 is the decision to yet again reuse ancient assets to boost car count and this tenuous connection to the FIA.

In Kaz's reddit discussion he mentioned that the dev team is largely the same as it was when it started 20 years ago. Anyone think this might be why they can't rewrite the AI, or constantly push graphics too far at the expense of everything else?

PD need to reconnect with their original philosophy of dedication to realism (on all levels not just graphics, handling and star maps but also consequences [damage], race formula, AI, economics etc...)

I think it is incredibly ironic that the more Kaz got into racing, the less like a racing game and less realistic GT became.

 

[Zuku]

The really sad thing is, I don't think I even care anymore what they do with GT7 after GT5 & GT6

However, all I can do is look back at past performances in order to determine how they might perform in the future:

We were promised a radical AI overhaul for GT5 - and the AI turned out to be a slightly tweaked version of the same old AI which was just barely adequate in GT1 with a digital controller. Then GT6 made it even worse.

Considering that as the years have passed GT has become much less about racing and more about dressing barbie dolls and acquiring trophies.

License tests became less important, but 'races' became more like license tests.

Moving from a more realistic economic constraint and reward system to an arcade level unlock system.

Reusing much loved but sub-standard assets on newer hardware.

Delayed games, delayed features, incomplete features, woefully implemented features.

Decreasing options in how to play the game...

Pushing the limits of the graphics at the expense of game play and playability.

Adding features very few people care about, or in some cases can even make use of, while not fixing any of the above problems. etc... etc... etc...


The only announcement I have seen about GT7 is the decision to yet again reuse ancient assets to boost car count and this tenuous connection to the FIA.

In Kaz's reddit discussion he mentioned that the dev team is largely the same as it was when it started 20 years ago. Anyone think this might be why they can't rewrite the AI, or constantly push graphics too far at the expense of everything else?

PD need to reconnect with their original philosophy of dedication to realism (on all levels not just graphics, handling and star maps but also consequences [damage], race formula, AI, economics etc...)

I think it is incredibly ironic that the more Kaz got into racing, the less like a racing game and less realistic GT became.

As someone who is trying to get into developing video games Kaz/PD is not someone I want to emulate. Reading your post can confirm one thing I partly knew. Kaz is out of touch with reality. This isn't the 90's/early 00's any longer.

Back then just having a fun game was awesome we didn't care about realism too much, or at least not like today's standards.

GT3 and GT4 at the time we're the best looking games I had ever seen on Playstation that's before I knew about PC's, but if his team is largely unchanged as has been stated that's not good, or at least it leads me to assume that they never evolved over time.

 

[MustangManiac]

I still think at the rate PD is going, it will be a blank disc when released with promises of any actual content to be delivered in the future.

Hey, they could release it in time for this years holiday shopping season that way, don't give them any ideas

 

[ArticTrust]

The day comes we pay $60 for a disc and then $10 to unlock extra content thing gaming will be dead in the water, and someone(probably Nintendo) has to revive it again.

Heck we're almost there at the rate we're going.

I recommend you watch jimquisitions rant about this topic, I'm sure you'd like it.

 

[RagingDaemon]

I am pretty passive and it has taken a long time for me to actually start to get a bit annoyed at some of the things that's been going on with Gran Turismo. When GT4 came out and I felt that races were too long...for years I blamed myself and thought I am not hard-core enough and that's alright because there are those who are. Then I thought No actually, 50 laps with a 6 car grid is friggin' boring!! I bought my PS3 for Gran Turismo 5 and I enjoyed quite a lot of aspects about it. Its the 6th one that has made me take a hard look back at the others and think that there is quite a few things I don't like.

Rolling starts in every race is annoying. Lack of qualifying a 'la GT1 and for that matter lap times haven't been saved since GT1 (unless I am mistaken). I didn't care about PS2 cars in GT5 or even GT6 but when I hear that they plan to use them for GT7 I think that is actually pretty lame. Would it hurt to stay away for a few years and just put out something that kicks as much arse as GT1 or even GT2? Someone earlier said, start a clean slate and go from there. I don't think that is too bad an idea. Also it is not just the content and how they look that is the problem, they need to dig deep and work out what it is that makes people want to play it. GT1 had this really awesome layout with tons of awesome music that really set a scene. Actually losing the Racing Modification option from GT1/2 was disappointing to me even when GT3 came out

Also it didn't take 30 minutes to buy 10 cars because it didn't have those pretentious loading screens. Yeah maybe I am stuck a bit in the past but I think they could have kept everything that made GT1/2 awesome and just gone from there. I could have lived my life without the photomode too.

 

[GTracer98]

Rolling starts are cool when they are double file with cars very close to each other, just like in real life.

 

[Zuku]

Rolling starts are cool when they are double file with cars very close to each other, just like in real life.

Rather have the option to do either or, but this is GT the or just doesn't come up that often, and if it does backfires in the worse way. (GT5 B-spec?)

@ArticTrust

I know about that guy some of the stuff he talks about is good, but I'm just voicing a concern cause even though the guy above me might be joking. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened in the future.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Hopefully, (don't kill me when I say this) it will have a GT4 style. All of the races, missions, driving park areas and what not... with premium cars and a 'refreshed' feel.

Hoorah! 👍
And a hardy, I concur, fellow Virginian.


Lest I forget to mention, Aspec points system, 1000 mis and Endurance races,
full New York and El Capitan tracks, on the fly switch from A to B spec.
Thats all for now.

 

[Organ-Donor]

They really needed to start from the ground up for PS4. Get with the times. Add livery editor, completely new sound design, improved AI, damage, new relevant cars, choice of grid starts or double wide close rolling starts, qualifying, better career, no more chase the rabbit races, consistent graphics for the entire game, etc. They need a FRESH start to gain back people's trust with the series. But with the announcement of carrying over cars from 10+years ago from PS2 yet AGAIN, it looks like its going to be the typical same song and dance.

I didn't buy GT6 for numerous reasons (first in the series I've passed on). Like others have said GT used to be the benchmark back in the day. Well it seems like they are still stuck there while others have surpassed them in so many ways. I think its absolutely ridiculous to carry over car assets from PS2 (don't use the "but their touched up" excuse) to the newest most cutting edge console. Its the exact opposite of what the GT series needs moving forward.

I've been a loyal GT fan my whole life and this is the first time I've wished Forza was on Playstation.

 

[JHB434]

If they want trust, it's simple. Deliver the game you promise, starting with GT6. If not, no deal on GT7. Simple.

 

[Vspectra]

GT3 and GT4 at the time we're the best looking games I had ever seen on Playstation that's before I knew about PC's, but if his team is largely unchanged as has been stated that's not good, or at least it leads me to assume that they never evolved over time.

In Kaz's reddit discussion he mentioned that the dev team is largely the same as it was when it started 20 years ago. Anyone think this might be why they can't rewrite the AI, or constantly push graphics too far at the expense of everything else?

Actually, his team has grown considerably since 20 years ago. The difference is, once people become a part of Kaz's team, they tend to stay there and are content with being a part of that team. So you have people who have worked with Kaz on GT for 10+ years, while the new and younger people are also being recruited as time goes on. What Kaz was saying is that everyone at PD is like family, people who's been working there don't leave because they still enjoy making the games, they enjoy being a part of the team, and it seems Kaz treats and pays them pretty well. Just because people who have worked on GT1 are still with PD doesn't make it a bad thing. Developers don't evolve just because you recruit and replace a bunch of people, especially if the people you already have are smart and hard workers. It's technology that evolves and people adapt. PD are more than a capable team to adapt. The problem lies in very strange design decisions, such as not giving us simple online options, or they do give us the options but then for some reason remove them in the next game.

Another problem lies in what Kaz views GT to be. It's a driving simulator, and they probably spend the majority of time trying to capture the feeling and sensation of driving. Since it's not a racing simulator, everything that comes after capturing the feeling of driving are placed lower on the priority list. It seems they're pretty content with the latest accomplishments in the physics, so we'll just have to see what they plan to do with the AI for GT7. Hiring a bunch of new people isn't going to magically make the AI better. It's up to Kaz if he wants people to spend the same amount of time coding the AI as they do in coding the lighting engine. We'd have a much better racing game right now if they did.

 

[Johnnypenso]

PD are more than a capable team to adapt. The problem lies in very strange design decisions, such as not giving us simple online options, or they do give us the options but then for some reason remove them in the next game.

Part of the risk of running a business and retaining the same staff for extended periods and treating them like family is stagnation and a lack of innovation. You tend to get into routines, you learn your limits and if active dissent isn't encouraged, you tend to keep your mouth shut unless spoken to. Innovation can stagnate because it's the same people doing the same job for years and years. This could be at least one way to explain some of the bizarre design decisions they've made lately.

Hiring a bunch of new people isn't going to magically make the AI better. It's up to Kaz if he wants people to spend the same amount of time coding the AI as they do in coding the lighting engine. We'd have a much better racing game right now if they did

True, hiring people isn't a magical solution. But if it's a priority to have competitive AI, and my guess is that it's not, at least not up until this point, then hiring new staff may be the only way to get the job done. I think we can safely assume the current staff is all occupied 40+ hours a week correct?

 

[Earth]

My expectations

• Career mode will be improved (no rubber band) and lengthened slightly
• On track car count will increase to 20
• Car damage will continue to be awful
• Bikes will be included as well as the Isle of Man
• The graphics will be astounding - they will be right there with Uncharted 4 in setting the bar for next gen console visuals
• Sounds will be improved greatly on some cars, but most will still sound awful.
• It will release late 2015 or early 2016
• Some missing GT6 feature at launch like course maker and B-Spec will be there day 1 on disc or through a day 1 update.

 

[mr_serious]

... Just because people who have worked on GT1 are still with PD doesn't make it a bad thing. Developers don't evolve just because you recruit and replace a bunch of people, especially if the people you already have are smart and hard workers. It's technology that evolves and people adapt.

People don't always adapt which is my point. It often takes a new perspective on things to make substantial improvements. New algorithms can be found, alternative ways of solving a problem can be found (such as the AI) etc... but only if you are looking for them!

PD are more than a capable team to adapt. The problem lies in very strange design decisions, such as not giving us simple online options, or they do give us the options but then for some reason remove them in the next game.

Really? On what evidence do you base that on? They have only adapted backwards since GT5P.How do those strange design decisions come about? Perhaps because there is a long standing hierarchy where people no longer can stand up and say "What?, that's crazy!"

Another problem lies in what Kaz views GT to be. It's a driving simulator, and they probably spend the majority of time trying to capture the feeling and sensation of driving. Since it's not a racing simulator, everything that comes after capturing the feeling of driving are placed lower on the priority list.

ha ha ha this old chestnut! Read the back of the box if you're going to use marketing quotes to defend a terrible racing game.

Hiring a bunch of new people isn't going to magically make the AI better.

Actually it might very well make the game better. We have been promised improved AI time and again since GT1 was released. Sadly despite their claims it has never materialised. It is not as if they haven't tried. However they always end up with the same result, the worst AI in the history of computer racing games.

Maybe the AI guy would be better at UI's because he couldn't be much worse then he is at coding competitive computer controlled racers?

Get someone who has a decent background in coding CC entities and start from scratch.

It's up to Kaz if he wants people to spend the same amount of time coding the AI as they do in coding the lighting engine. We'd have a much better racing game right now if they did.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Rhykus Finlay]

GT's sort of at a crossroads to me right now. This is going to be a long and probably rambling post so just skip it if you want to. It's also my opinion so if I say something very stupid, sorry.

Anyway, GT did something awesome in the 90's, it made a great driving simulator, and people found that that was actually fun, even if it was insanely difficult. It started this craze within racing games to be realistic, it made everyone see that that would sell, and that it would be better than silly arcade-y racers. So Microsoft made Forza, and games have been catching up to how well GT simulated cars on consoles ever since.

But that's the problem. PD isn't exactly the largest company, and they're up against two problems. First, new competitors have more people, and more money, and ideas. Which is the second reason. Kaz and PD love what they did and rightly so, it was probably one of the best games of all time. But they can't seem to let go, they keep trying to hold onto that old GT philosophy, which is ridiculous. They have the same types of people, the same beliefs, as they did before-to make a good simulation of cars for the console. But they also seem to be unable to anything really different, because they're afraid of messing it up.

But they shouldn't be, they did an amazing thing back then and they still have more capability than any other game developer in the world to make something beautiful, and something new. I hope that either sales loss, or complaints, or anything of the sort are telling them this. If they do eventually realize that, and they haven't screwed up too much by then, they'll hire new people (better people maybe), they'll strip down the whole game to its physics engine and add in soft bodied cars. They'll give us a decent AI, they'll fix the problems they've made.

It's a big stretch yeah, but that's kind of what GT is all about isn't it? Making something nobody thought could ever happen, happen. I grew up with these games, they inspired me to want to be a racing driver. I just hope that they don't ruin what they've done, because they have more passion for racing and gaming than anyone else ever has.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1093008_fia-and-gran-turismo-to-launch-digital-championship

If they don't do this, I and I assume many many other people will begin playing Project Cars, and remember GT as a happy memory of the pixelated PS2/PS1 age.

 

[Johnnypenso]

But that's the problem. PD isn't exactly the largest company, and they're up against two problems. First, new competitors have more people, and more money, and ideas.

The budget for GT5 was $60Million I don't think lack of funds is one of their issues.

 

[JHB434]

Lies are still lies. Making announcements about what a game includes and then not including it is still a lie. Call it what you want to. Sugar coat it as you want to. But if it does not exist after it was promised/announced, hey, guess what? It is still a lie. "I didn't notice the Ferrari sounds like a Hoover"? Still, a lie.

 

[RagingDaemon]

I don't know what the budget is being spent on, but is it possible that $60 million is not a lot of money if it includes all the licensing for all the car manufacturers, licensing for tracks and the branding (possible that the brand pays Polyphony to have their name in the game). Also the cost for staff and the work they do, also I assume they travel a lot to get data on cars and tracks and that could include travel expenses, accommodations while they are away etc. Add to this how many years it has taken to develop and release the game.

If anyone has any idea how the budget is actually allocated that would be cool to know. Gran Turismo is an extremely ambitious project when you think about it, it must be really quite difficult and an overwhelming task at times.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

GT's sort of at a crossroads to me right now. This is going to be a long and probably rambling post so just skip it if you want to. It's also my opinion so if I say something very stupid, sorry.

Anyway, GT did something awesome in the 90's, it made a great driving simulator, and people found that that was actually fun, even if it was insanely difficult. It started this craze within racing games to be realistic, it made everyone see that that would sell, and that it would be better than silly arcade-y racers. So Microsoft made Forza, and games have been catching up to how well GT simulated cars on consoles ever since.

But that's the problem. PD isn't exactly the largest company, and they're up against two problems. First, new competitors have more people, and more money, and ideas. Which is the second reason. Kaz and PD love what they did and rightly so, it was probably one of the best games of all time. But they can't seem to let go, they keep trying to hold onto that old GT philosophy, which is ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but IMO what I bolded above, is the opposite of the reality.
Their biggest problem is they have not held on to their philosophy of games 1-4.
That being to produce a well thought out concept of structure and content, and balance the build properly.
That will yield quality and quantity. Exactly what we got, particularly with 3 and 4.
I don't think they trust in their original philosophy anymore.
They keep trying to add features from the other also ran games.
Gimmicks from other games, won't make a great GT game.
All it seems to do in GT, is make it more unbalanced and helter-skelter.
Besides if I wanted those things, I can go play those games.

They have the same types of people, the same beliefs, as they did before-to make a good simulation of cars for the console. But they also seem to be unable to anything really different, because they're afraid of messing it up.

Well, their fear has come upon them, for in the opinion of many, thats exactly what happened with 5 and 6.
They messed them up.

But they shouldn't be, they did an amazing thing back then and they still have more capability than any other game developer in the world to make something beautiful, and something new. I hope that either sales loss, or complaints, or anything of the sort are telling them this. If they do eventually realize that, and they haven't screwed up too much by then, they'll hire new people (better people maybe), they'll strip down the whole game to its physics engine and add in soft bodied cars. They'll give us a decent AI, they'll fix the problems they've made..

I think they should be in one respect.
That being always aware to retain the core uniqueness, their games had, that endeared so many to the series.
They seem to have lost focus and direction since GT4.
As if they want to change the game, but are relying on less quality and quantity to do so.
I'm sorry, but ditty collectables add nothing of quality for the majority of players.
One of the draws in GT is collecting the cars, and this can be enhanced with more focus on personalizing options.
Hey PD, why do you suppose the second most supported suggestion here, is a "Livery Editor".
How about 1400 rims to go with the 1400 cars?
The possibilities here are practically endless.

It's a big stretch yeah, but that's kind of what GT is all about isn't it? Making something nobody thought could ever happen, happen. I grew up with these games, they inspired me to want to be a racing driver. I just hope that they don't ruin what they've done, because they have more passion for racing and gaming than anyone else ever has..

I don't think its a stretch at all.
Its just back to basics.
Back to the concepts, structure, balance and features that made their games so successful to start with.
Just refine, improve and expand.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1093008_fia-and-gran-turismo-to-launch-digital-championship

This is fine too.
But I think you have to weigh it as: "Is this a feature most players will want to play and replay"?
"Does it really add a uniqueness quality, in that respect "?
"Are you trading off a feature in the game that does have that, for this"?

If they don't do this, I and I assume many many other people will begin playing Project Cars, and remember GT as a happy memory of the pixelated PS2/PS1 age.

That became the reality before Project Cars.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I have a theory why things aren't as good now as they were; competition


Now, a lot of the parts of GT1 which made it fascinating (I remember using a Lancer to best a super car) would simply not happen anymore in Gran Turismo 6... We are getting better, the AI is getting better, and the physics are becoming more realistic. This can lead to either great races or terrible time attack-esque events.


With online, everyone is so quick to abandon offline and jump online, where the competition can be made closer... They naturally would dislike even the most well-thought-out career system. I remember wanting to drive on all of the new tracks in all of the new cars...; I played through the career mode happily in GT3 and so on... Until GT5, when suddenly I had played online in Forza 2 and 3, improving my driving skill while racing in real life; again, I was getting better.



So now, the problem is that I'm finding the AI too slow and I know all of the cars and tracks... I like the cars and tracks, but it doesn't take me nearly as long to memorize a circuit.

 

[Johnnypenso]

the AI is getting better

The AI is the worst it's ever been.

With online, everyone is so quick to abandon offline and jump online, where the competition can be made closer...

GT's online mode is nowhere near what I'd call popular, judging by the number of open lobbies anyway. Been a couple of months since I was online, but most weeknights there were less than 100 lobbies, and many of them had 1, 2 or 3 people in them. Easily less than 1000 people at any given time which is an extremely low participation rate.

They naturally would dislike even the most well-thought-out career system.

GT is still mainly an offline or TT based game. The statistics certainly lean that way. A well thought out, immersive and flexible offline career, along with an Event/Race creator seems to be exactly what this series needs.

 

[Fat Tyre]

I expect PD to create a lot of hype before release with the help of great marketing strategies such as deceiving video trailers, paid reviews that will tell us once again how the A.I. now acts like a real racer only to see later it is the same A.I. as in GT1, promised features sadly not to be found on release date and special collector's edition with an Apex 3 book that sadly won't be there when you go to pick up your game. I also expect a lot of bragging about the amount of content such as number of tracks and cars only to see later some tracks still seem to look as their ps2 version. I do think however sound will see an improvement but maybe not on all cars... Standard/ Premium sound?

 

[super_gt]

For me is importantly what they can make with GT6 phyisics right now,GT7 is far away for me.
At least PD can include option on/off for hidden aides!

 

[Mulan]

Hey this is the future continued and as it all seems all is in place for all that dream to become a racer in real life to have a chance with this game (ok still not all countries). What else is needed to say this is the real simulator? So not just the game but the stuff surrounding the game. More online more reallife wins and more visioncars. Call it smart marketing but it will work!

http://pitstop.gran-turismo.com/en/article/735

 

[KLiKzg]

Hopefully there wouldn't be an idiot there to "crack the save game" again...so we can import GT6 cars in GT7!

 

[JKgo]

Currently I am sitting on the fence about PS4: If I get a news regarding the direction of GT7 and I happen to believe in it, I'll buy the system. Wait that's a lie I'll get it sooner or later.
However, I am worried about GT7. That's no lie. We judge stuff based on past performances and PDI of late developed a habit of under-delivering. So yeah, dunno what's happening with GT7. I said this before but I think PDI needs to drop the support for GT6 before the year's end and start concentrating exclusively on GT7 if they wish to ship it with all the stuff they want. Hiring new staff will go a long way obviously but time frame constraints and demands from paymaster (Sony) means you'll have to hire a LOT of new people, or farm out some work to external contractors.
I'm hoping that PDI have a foresight to work alongside Evolution since U.K. based devs have experience working on PS4 already.
Secretly, I'm praying that GT7 is an open-world game featuring bikes; and race tracks hidden in the game's map, requiring you to drive around to find them. Have social features similar to DriveClub but also not penalizing "lone wolves" aka free agents. Oh and full weather effects: if it's winter, then let it snow. In autumn, leaves turn brown. That sorta things.

 

[Zuku]

Currently I am sitting on the fence about PS4: If I get a news regarding the direction of GT7 and I happen to believe in it, I'll buy the system. Wait that's a lie I'll get it sooner or later.
However, I am worried about GT7. That's no lie. We judge stuff based on past performances and PDI of late developed a habit of under-delivering. So yeah, dunno what's happening with GT7. I said this before but I think PDI needs to drop the support for GT6 before the year's end and start concentrating exclusively on GT7 if they wish to ship it with all the stuff they want. Hiring new staff will go a long way obviously but time frame constraints and demands from paymaster (Sony) means you'll have to hire a LOT of new people, or farm out some work to external contractors.
I'm hoping that PDI have a foresight to work alongside Evolution since U.K. based devs have experience working on PS4 already.
Secretly, I'm praying that GT7 is an open-world game featuring bikes; and race tracks hidden in the game's map, requiring you to drive around to find them. Have social features similar to DriveClub but also not penalizing "lone wolves" aka free agents. Oh and full weather effects: if it's winter, then let it snow. In autumn, leaves turn brown. That sorta things.

I still feel like PD got to full of themselves at the end of the day when you claim title as real driving simulator and were for 2 generations counting like the only real racing game for most people. Yeah think I'd probably be full of myself too.

I said this in another thread PD/Kaz biggest problem is people back in 1999 or 1998 can't remember that were between ages 4-20 are not 19-35 and they have ideas of their own inspired by this game.

Heck I got ideas of my own inspired by this game, and some of those people have probably started developing video games.

Also too long story short Kaz let himself get behind with the times as well. The #1 thing you do is don't get behind the times you make the times.

 

[TayeezSA]

Can we have Autocross in future pls?