The GT6 Epic Whining and Crying Thread

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

@Imari thanks for the laughs that second to last one had me rolling for sure.

 

[bodger]

Let's check those out.



Poor scheduling. Usually management does the scheduling, so I'd say mismanagement.



What, like when they failed to deliver the gold copy on time? Oh wait, that's a scheduling thing again. Mismanagement.



I know who makes those decisions! Miss Management! She's a stunning girl with many bright ideas.



Ah, when the management underestimated what was technically possible. A little management missed there I feel.



You're right, this isn't mismanagement. It's completely selfish of Sony not to allow PD management to take more than 5 years to make a game. I can't imagine why they'd put their foot down on that one, unless they thought that PD management was incapable or something.

This is your negative take on it. Maybe you have inside knowledge of some kind and you are right...

Ultimately we don't have the information regards what goes on internally, so it is difficult to actually say what ALL the delays were down to.

I was simply making the point that not all the delays could necessarily be put down to alleged mismanagement.

All I would say is given what has actually been delivered over the last 15 years, that this is not a team in crisis.

I am pretty sure if things were as chaotic and mismanaged as some portray, we'd have seen the back of PD years ago.

 

[Imari]

I am pretty sure if things were as chaotic and mismanaged as some portray, we'd have seen the back of PD years ago.

Not really. They'll just keep selling GT4 over and over again. Clearly it works.

 

[bodger]

Not really. They'll just keep selling GT4 over and over again. Clearly it works.

In my experience as a programmer/developer actual mismanagement, etc. would have resulted in something far worse than a bunch of features missing that you'd like or implementation that you disagree with when compared to another product.

I think over 15 years you would have seen...

A. Total disintegration and break up of the team
B. Complete failure to ship something at all
C. Completely unworkable deliverable e.g. Sim City

Something clearly is working within the team, it may not be perfect or meet your expectations as an arm chair game developer, but they can deliver...

 

[MXH]

Something clearly is working within the team, it may not be perfect or meet your expectations as an arm chair game developer, but they can deliver...

...just barely?

 

[TheModestDriver]

For me this is the biggest let down in the GT series. Its almost like they blatantly turn a blind eye to whats going on in the automotive industry.

I played GT5 today and stopped to think a min. Prolly the 1000th time ive asked myself this question Why on gods green earth would PD put in kart racing and 6 games and 15 years in we don't even have a dedicated 1/4 strip. But apparently kart Racing is a must have. Its mind boggling and dishearthening for a live long GT fan, drag racing fan and automotive enthusiast in general.

damn, you pinned my thoughts exactly. It's like even people that play it are blind too, "the graphics don't suck", "the car physics are amazing", "the tire smoke is so real" etc... I've found myself "drag racing" on indy road, and thinking "WTF are we and PD (especially PD) doing?"

 

[CorvetteConquer]

Kaz is gazing at the stars wondering how they can accurately simulate astronomy, while we're down on Earth looking at the absence of many cars, tracks and proper customization as we wonder .....WTF.

We can accept, (and often enjoy), Kaz's eccentricity and quirks if they'd increase staff; add more modelers, enhance the audio staff (of whom there were only 2 in GT5's credits). We don't mind the innovative, progressive, borderline obsessive compulsive and eccentric tendencies of a middle-aged man living out his childhood fantasy, but at the expense of many important cars and (some) tracks? It's not worth it.

 

[TheModestDriver]

Kaz is gazing at the stars wondering how they can accurately simulate astronomy, while we're down on Earth looking at the absence of many cars and tracks and wondering.....WTF.

"hey guys! look at this accurate day/night cycle!!!1!!" -Kazunori Yamauchi

 

[bodger]

...just barely?

If it was 'barely', GT5 would be a dog's breakfast. Short comings, yes, the canine's breakfast, not so much.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

Stupid question but where is SAMUS? I didnt se him for while on forum. He was always negative about GT games...

 

[Alex p.]

Recently I've begun to come to the conclusion that the language barrier has been the biggest problem all along. GTP is an English speaking site. Most of PD's staff Im sure speak Japanese and very little if any English, including Kaz himself. So they're not ignoring requests for the E30 or livery editor, they're simply not aware of them. Imagine if you were developing a game and the largest fansite spoke only Japanese. It would be pretty difficult to understand what they're about, right?

My conclusion is they're judging the success of the game by how well it sells, not by reviews or consumer feedback. They did things a certain way in GT5, and it sold extremely well. The best selling Playstation exclusive. So why change the way they're doing things? Sales numbers are probably more important then review scores or feedback to them. Call of Duty may be a yearly retread, but it sells well because people like to know what they're getting. The developers are aware of that, so they're sure to keep it as familiar as possible.

I just think PD knows most people are content with hotlapping hundreds of cars around numerous courses. The success of GT Academy confirms that. So thats what they're focused on, physics for hotlapping and more cars and tracks. Thats why we get the hotlapping seasonal events and not real races. Thats why theres no qualifying, no real race weekend for events. PD doesnt think its audience really cares about the racing experience. Do you need great AI when hotlapping? Do you need a good damage model when hotlapping? No. So no need to focus on those things.

I hate to say it, but Gran Turismo is never going to change. Its been the same thing for 15 years now, with minimal updates along the way. Those of us who have been with the series since its inception in 1998 have begun to want more out of the series. We're older now, we're digging into PC sims, and Gran Turismo is starting to not hold its ground anymore. These other titles strive to imitate real world racing much better by giving a full race weekend (practice/qualifying/race), caution flags, etc. Meanwhile GT is stuck being the car collecting simulator, where the racing feels more like some bush league event rather then a professionally organized race weekend.

Thats where it becomes terribly frustrating. GT has upgraded its graphics significantly since 1998. Same with physics, car count, track count, etc. But the racing is still the same. Customizing your car is still mostly the same. And I dont think that will ever change. Its not that they're slow at change in these areas, its that they're not changing and wont change. They see racing and car customization as not that important. They know when people think of GT they dont think of great, challenging AI or custom liveries or engine swaps. They think lots of cars, pretty graphics, and hot lapping, and GT Academy.

So I've finally broke. It saddens me a bit to say I no longer expect greatness from GT. The passion I could feel in the design of the original GT has since faded into nothingness. Im no longer interested in trying to gather ideas to improve the series, or in tracking development updates, or hoping it improves. I have the same expectations of it as a COD game. Just another title with a bigger number then the last. Im no longer disappointed, as I no longer am willing to hold expectations for the game. What it is is what it is. Really sad because for a while there I actually thought PD shared my opinion of what really makes a great racer everyone can enjoy. I couldnt be more wrong.

Its something like a divorce. For the longest time you thought she was perfect for you, but in time you discovered that you and her have irreconcilable differences. So I tried to make this marriage work. I waited, I begged, I fell for unkept promises, I tried my best to be a good partner by supporting and buying the games. But in the end I realized these differences are here to stay. Gran Turismo is not changing. But Ill hang around for now because Im a bum and theres nobody else I can afford on the other console or PC side of things. Hopefully GT is kind to me with #6 and doesnt make the time I have left with her miserable by beating me with a poor career mode etc. Or I could just stick it out, try to make the marriage work. Instead of focusing on GT's flaws, try to focus on its merits. Sounds like a good idea.

Really great post my man, really great post, I agree on everything except the language barrier maybe.

 

[MXH]

If it was 'barely', GT5 would be a dog's breakfast. Short comings, yes, the canine's breakfast, not so much.

Considering the state of GT5 1.0(1) after many years in development, it might just as well be compared to a dog's breakfast. They had to release the poor game, else we would have had to wait two more years if Kaz would've got his wish granted.

 

[bodger]

Considering the state of GT5 1.0(1) after many years in development, it might just as well be compared to a dog's breakfast. They had to release the poor game, else we would have had to wait two more years if Kaz would've got his wish granted.

I disagree.

 

[lazywolfe]

If you really are a developer (like myself) you will realise that no matter how good the team, bugs happen. Most games these days get patched.

I wouldn't say I was if I weren't. I mean, I know saying you're a developer gets you all the hot ladies and everything so there's a huge temptation to lie, but I am, no worries.

And +1 to Imari. Saved me the trouble of typing it myself.

 

[Johnnypenso]

damn, you pinned my thoughts exactly. It's like even people that play it are blind too, "the graphics don't suck", "the car physics are amazing", "the tire smoke is so real" etc... I've found myself "drag racing" on indy road, and thinking "WTF are we and PD (especially PD) doing?"

I think most people that play GT are aware of it's shortcomings and either play around them or don't care and enjoy them anyway. I avoid AI and off line altogether. I didn't complete most of the last two levels because racing for hours or endless laps in races I find completely boring, doesn't appeal to me. But I do enjoy the online portion of the game even though it's massively flawed as well. In the end we make the best of it and really, for $60 it's about the best gaming bang for the buck in the history of the universe in terms of cost/hr of gaming, for those that didn't abandon it early on anyway.

 

[jimipitbull]

I think most people that play GT are aware of it's shortcomings and either play around them or don't care and enjoy them anyway. I avoid AI and off line altogether. I didn't complete most of the last two levels because racing for hours or endless laps in races I find completely boring, doesn't appeal to me. But I do enjoy the online portion of the game even though it's massively flawed as well. In the end we make the best of it and really, for $60 it's about the best gaming bang for the buck in the history of the universe in terms of cost/hr of gaming, for those that didn't abandon it early on anyway.

True that. Also, there's another side to GT which not many other games have. Sites/community such as GTplanet add a massive amount of playability to both online and offline.

 

[ildd]

I think I got the most out of GT5 out of all the games I've bought.
Which is only 4... but... you get the idea

 

[sems4arsenal]

Stupid question but where is SAMUS? I didnt se him for while on forum. He was always negative about GT games...

Every one has their opinion, he always justified his reasons though so to each their own.

 

[ildd]

Every one has their opinion, he always justified his reasons though so to each their own.

He justified why he hates anything that moves and everything that doesn't move

 

[sems4arsenal]

He justified why he hates anything that moves and everything that doesn't move

I can understand you're point, but for me, most of the times he posted valid justifications and I tend to agree with most of his criticism.

Games progress with constructive criticism from players.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I can understand you're point, but for me, most of the times he posted valid justifications and I tend to agree with most of his criticism.

Games progress with constructive criticism from players.

Most people don't have the good sense to actually validate their claims as well as Samus does, and it's a general trend these days to focus on a perceived "feeling" or "agenda" when some says something you don't like and throw all your energy into pinning someone with that perceived "agenda" as a way of invalidating their claims. Of course that's as opposed to focusing on the content of someone's message and being objective about it's truth or lack thereof.

When @Samus says something that isn't true or he can't back up with verifiable facts I'd be the first to take issue, but I don't think it'll ever happen, he's just too thorough and well informed.

 

[Imari]

Considering the state of GT5 1.0(1) after many years in development, it might just as well be compared to a dog's breakfast. They had to release the poor game, else we would have had to wait two more years if Kaz would've got his wish granted.

I agree. As much of the state of GT5 now is pretty good, 1.01 was an awful, awful game.

No PP, no seasonals, no leaderboards because no seasonals, no OCD, no gear tuning, worse graphical issues than now, glitches in tracks, no power/weight limits on lobbies, no mechanical damage, no cash or experience from racing online, no Remote Racing (not that anyone cares), no racing gear, no purchasing car parts through the settings screen, worse AI, no mid-race suspend, no "interior" views on standards, no user control of weather, only one setup per car, no FF/RWD in replays, no aftermarket wheels on standards, and a huge number of little bugs fixed by patches over the years.

If it was still like that now, PD would really be up a creek without an oar. Some of the stuff above is cute touches, but a surprising amount are basic features. What's clearly worked for them is that people don't remember that, they only remember the most recent version that they played.

Or people bought their copy after the most egregious flaws had been patched out already.

GT5 did as well as it did at launch on the strength of the driving experience and the GT name. The actual game itself was indeed a dog's breakfast.

 

[Chad Daddy]

Oh no. I shouldn't be here.

 

[Downhill Dino]

I agree. As much of the state of GT5 now is pretty good, 1.01 was an awful, awful game.

Was still a lot of fun.

 

[ildd]

@Imari (or anyone)
I didn't get GT5 until December of 2011, which was post- 2.01. How much bad did I miss, exactly? I thought the game was great considering I got a S Vettel x1 as soon as the game first loaded

 

[Tenacious D]

We can accept, (and often enjoy), Kaz's eccentricity and quirks if they'd increase staff; add more modelers, enhance the audio staff (of whom there were only 2 in GT5's credits). We don't mind the innovative, progressive, borderline obsessive compulsive and eccentric tendencies of a middle-aged man living out his childhood fantasy, but at the expense of many important cars and (some) tracks? It's not worth it.

Which means what, exactly?

For most humans, when something reaches the point it's "not worth it" to us, we've dropped it like a rotten potato in the trash. Outside. Far from the house. And have nothing more to do with it.

On the other hand, there is a certain kind of net disdain which amounts to "I'm done with (this certain thing). (But at the same time I'm going to continue to post on boards based on that certain thing to criticize it, and will sound at times like I'm still intending to be involved with that certain thing such as discussing why certain peripherals might not work with it. And don't be surprised if I change my mind without notice and end up getting that certain thing and posting my reactions to it, and asking questions of others about it. Even though as far as I'm concerned, it's still really not worth it when you get down to it.)"

Yes, I'm having too much fun with this premise, but it's sadly true these days. Glib phrases are thrown around like tissue wads and have about as much substance. The age of Jibajab has reduced conversation and debate to vapid microsquabbles, and very little can be taken seriously anymore. Fortunately, some of us here are still intent on sharing ideas and making statements which aren't disposable.

I know I'm asking for trouble in a thread dedicated to grinching. But still, this is the 21st Century, and I expect the human race to be moving in a better direction. Instead, we vote for presidents who promise free lunches paid for by "the evil rich" or something, and say we're done with a game series while sounding like we're still getting it after all. People are strange...

 

[sems4arsenal]

Most people don't have the good sense to actually validate their claims as well as Samus does, and it's a general trend these days to focus on a perceived "feeling" or "agenda" when some says something you don't like and throw all your energy into pinning someone with that perceived "agenda" as a way of invalidating their claims. Of course that's as opposed to focusing on the content of someone's message and being objective about it's truth or lack thereof.

When @Samus says something that isn't true or he can't back up with verifiable facts I'd be the first to take issue, but I don't think it'll ever happen, he's just too thorough and well informed.

couldn't agree more 👍

 

[Imari]

@Imari (or anyone)
I didn't get GT5 until December of 2011, which was post- 2.01. How much bad did I miss, exactly? I thought the game was great considering I got a S Vettel x1 as soon as the game first loaded

If you're just here for the driving, it wasn't much different if we're honest.

If you're playing through A-spec and seasonals, or spending substantial time online, there had been significant features added to improve the experience. It wasn't the worst thing in the world, but it was probably the worst single player experience in any full GT game, and the online wasn't up to the standards set by similar games and GT5P.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

...When @Samus says something that isn't true or he can't back up with verifiable facts I'd be the first to take issue, but I don't think it'll ever happen, he's just too thorough and well informed.

SimonK fought me tooth and nail that GT6 was going to be a PS4 title. Up until and even a few days after the news started to break.

He is a friend, but anyone can be wrong.

 

[bodger]

I agree. As much of the state of GT5 now is pretty good, 1.01 was an awful, awful game.

No PP, no seasonals, no leaderboards because no seasonals, no OCD, no gear tuning, worse graphical issues than now, glitches in tracks, no power/weight limits on lobbies, no mechanical damage, no cash or experience from racing online, no Remote Racing (not that anyone cares), no racing gear, no purchasing car parts through the settings screen, worse AI, no mid-race suspend, no "interior" views on standards, no user control of weather, only one setup per car, no FF/RWD in replays, no aftermarket wheels on standards, and a huge number of little bugs fixed by patches over the years.

If it was still like that now, PD would really be up a creek without an oar. Some of the stuff above is cute touches, but a surprising amount are basic features. What's clearly worked for them is that people don't remember that, they only remember the most recent version that they played.

Or people bought their copy after the most egregious flaws had been patched out already.

GT5 did as well as it did at launch on the strength of the driving experience and the GT name. The actual game itself was indeed a dog's breakfast.

Would you not say that most of this is a list of 'features' that were added over time? Rather than serious horrific bugs and bad design decisions indicative of mismanagement?

To me, it is interesting that you correlate a set of enhancements to the software overtime as failures in the team itself. It is quite possible that Sony were asking for the game at a certain date and they had to deliver what they had at the time. I remember PD saying well before the release of GT5 that it was basically complete, and could in fact be released at any time, it was just a case of when to decide to stop adding features and fit in with Sony's schedules.

The fact that PD themselves have said that the nature of an actual versioned game release is changing, and that the concept of a game coming out every few years in a package is changing. You could say that iRacing, for example, has a whole host of features and assets it didn't have years ago, but would you say the original version was a mess because of mismanagement? No.

The difficult thing here is that software is complicated, and increasingly these days, due to online updateability, is a living breathing, changing thing. Read the book "dreaming in code". There is a great quote in there that says software is never really finished, it's just in varying degrees of "less broken".