Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

[ferhound]

Should have presets like violent, angry, sloppy... that would be a really brilliant AI.

 

[05XR8]

I had this draft sitting here for a while( a bit before the World Tour): @Jordan and Staff, if you all get to ask Kaz more questions, can you ask if AI has or is being improved each Update? It seems like the AI, in my races anyway, are improved.

Then, the article was posted about Jordan being at the World Tour. I'm going guess no improvements have been made to AI programming in GT7.

 

[happycorey]

I can't help but feel like Sophy would have been perfect for a new and improved B-Spec or even a full on Gran Turismo Manager spinoff.

I was just thinking of this as well. Much like later B Spec Bobs, Sophy can improve with predetermined metrics like it takes X number of laps and improvement to move to the next Driver level. Obviously it takes thousands of laps to improve itself offline so there would already be improved versions loaded to switch to as they get better or worse.

 

[Techlet]

I was just thinking of this as well. Much like later B Spec Bobs, Sophy can improve with predetermined metrics like it takes X number of laps and improvement to move to the next Driver level. Obviously it takes thousands of laps to improve itself offline so there would already be improved versions loaded to switch to as they get better or worse.

I wonder if it'd be possible, since the whole game is online, to crowd source Sophy's training across every B-spec race in real time.

 

[greenlightning]

Am I the only one that thinks project cars had decent AI? You could increase difficulty by percentage and aggressiveness. Is it really that difficult to do?

Sometimes it took a little time to dial in, you’d set it and blow them away but it wasn’t that long where you’d find ok I guess on this track and this car category I’m about an 87% for a good race that I can still win if I race well.

Even if we could put some AI onto lobbies just to fill the group out a bit would be nice. I don’t even care if they are dumb AI And more of an obstacle even if you are lapping them.

Probably been said already. A.I. in Automoblista 2 is really good. Decent in project cars also, way way better then GT series. The thing with GT series is the offline racing has been same as in the very begging. I guess with the full blown races cars it has gotten better with GT and A.I.

It should be simple though to tone down the race speed, accuracy and agressivness of A.I. Better yet they could have it match your skill level within a certain percentage.


How about using this as your B spec driver.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I want to know if it's possible to use the same machine learning algorithm to create a Sophy AI race steward that can judge contact penalties correctly. Because the current Sophy already learns some degree of sportsmanship, it wouldn't be a stretch to basically reprogram it to judge racing incidents and then decide if it's "wrong" or "right", and give correct amount of penalty to the right driver.

Making a perfect penalty system is basically impossible but with machine learning super AI, I think we can do much better than the current system. It would be beneficial for players of all skill levels too, instead of just challenging for the super fast drivers. Also it would help prevent such a controversial ending as the final race in the Nations Cup.

 

[lqpl]

Nothing can beat it but the single player races are pretty lame. Even when I was working my way through the main cafe menus most of it was just meh. It’s weird though there was a couple races or tournaments that weren’t too bad and actually fun.

This viewer's event was actually nice. Offered 2 nice challenging races, with nice payouts. And the extra tickets were nice as well.

Now do that weekly- challenging events, with better rewards. And maybe offer those parts/engine tickets as a rewards; since you can only get the reward once, like a circuit experience.

Yes this would be sort of fomo content, but if it was done regularly as daily races, You know you could always count on that rather than hoping for a new/extra menu every update.

"Beat sophy this week for 6 star parts ticket"

......why tf carbon brakes are a 6 star ticket reward blows my mind. The fact they show it in the preview ticket is even more hilarious.


...hats off to the ones that got the silvia 2.0, and carbon brakes😑

 

[o000o]

Ways to go before being released on public? Eh what it doesn't matter, not worth caring. Just merely wasted use in Poly-Phony Digital digital way of adding some more challenges, not something necessary but they are blind to their problems so it's not worth appreciating how 'human' Sophy is blah blah..

 

[breyzipp]

Likely won't see Sophy in GT7…

Why not? GT7 isn’t even a year old and still has got a couple of years left IMO. After GT Sport the need for a proper GT title was there, after GT7 that need is gone. Is anyone waiting for GT8? I sure am not, I prefer that PD adds to and improves GT7 for many years to come. What would a GT8 be that GT7 already is not? Ditch PS4 support and go full PS5? That will only leave a huge chunk of the player base behind. Or they could leave improved features like PS5 only, PSVR 2 and Sophy on the side until they have enough for a GT8 but honestly, I don’t see the value in it yet. After the fiasco / backlash that was the GT7 launch I think it’s best they stay low about a new GT title for quite some time.

 

[VinylRichie]

From what I understand reading this article, it sounds to me like Sophy has superhuman speed, with its only restraint being etiquette and safety. Once it finds an opening to pass a human driver, the player can no longer hope to catch it again as it simply waltzes away with its inhuman pace. It makes me ask the question that was acknowledged in the article: "How is that fun?" Assuming Sophy makes it into GT7, where the player almost always starts last in campaign mode, is that to say that we'll never even have a chance to line up side by side with a car driven by Sophy?

For Sophy to serve as an AI in a racing game, I assume it would have to learn a given player's pace, and then closely match it as they improve over time. Sophy would also have to be prone to mistakes, prone to "emotion" sometimes, like anger and fear. How does it react to a little rubbing, or a flat out punt from the player? Has it been trained to recover a car from a slide? Can it handle changing track conditions with standing and drying water? Until these questions are answered, I can't see Sophy ever being relevant to us, the players of GT7 who constantly suffer oblivious shunts from the brain–dead AI.

As a "sparring partner" that helps one improve, yes, it does sound like the perfect tool. I just don't see it being the savior of GT7 like I so badly wish it could be.

I’m pretty sure in an earlier article someone from PD or Sony AI confirmed that Sophys difficulty level will be scalable

 

[happycorey]

I wonder if it'd be possible, since the whole game is online, to crowd source Sophy's training across every B-spec race in real time.

It’s possible to gather that data to improve what they are already doing, but it makes more sense to do it locally with more purposeful equipment. The data I could see them using is the anomalies created by shortchanging the development to meet the “experience” level of the player to hone in on human tendencies.

I want to know if it's possible to use the same machine learning algorithm to create a Sophy AI race steward that can judge contact penalties correctly. Because the current Sophy already learns some degree of sportsmanship, it wouldn't be a stretch to basically reprogram it to judge racing incidents and then decide if it's "wrong" or "right", and give correct amount of penalty to the right driver.

Making a perfect penalty system is basically impossible but with machine learning super AI, I think we can do much better than the current system. It would be beneficial for players of all skill levels too, instead of just challenging for the super fast drivers. Also it would help prevent such a controversial ending as the final race in the Nations Cup.

I’ve always thought how simple the penalty system could be engineered. Drift points are calculated by speed, and angle in relation to the racing line. Momentum/trajectory, steering input, and perpendicular to racing line should also be in consideration for the system. Maybe Sophy could help them fine tune what it would do in that scenario? It would certainly help outside of a strict “racing line deviation” and when another car is present.

 

[Aymeric]

From what I recall from leaks from a few months ago, Sophy will just be a set of time trial missions like the Hamilton DLC, which sounds like an utter waste.

Of course PD would implement an AI that can actually race and make it so you never actually race it.

According to Beauvois on an Aweoob stream, we maybe able to modify the difficulty level of Sophy as seen in Showdown https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxhJVteSO1JgsXjF5vy9DckxRDoOkfKZjp

I wonder then if Sophy will be paid DLC like the LH missions.

If that is the case, too bad I don't take it

 

[OverTheTop983]

We should all be happy with this new technology and instead I read the usual denigrators.

 

[TT92]

We should all be happy with this new technology and instead I read the usual denigrators.

So your theory is "If it's new it must be good"?

I am in the group that thinks caution and further investigation is needed to find out exactly what we are getting.

 

[Kazuya720]

Why got this think even an female name? Just to provocate the vast majority of male player, being beaten by a "girl" I am waiting for the first "**** off Sophy" stickers on cars

 

[hyperspeed980]

Why got this think even an female name? Just to provocate the vast majority of male player, being beaten by a "girl" I am waiting for the first "**** off Sophy" stickers on cars

I figured it was just because it sounds like a mix of "Sony" and "Polyphony". You might be reading too deep into it.

 

[Veinz]

We should all be happy with this new technology and instead I read the usual denigrators.

True. This game released 9 months ago, you would think that they would have found something better to do by now, but nope.

 

[Samus]

True. This game released 9 months ago, you would think that they would have found something better to do by now, but nope.

..and Sophy was first show off 10 months ago and it's seemingly still nowhere near ready to add to the game. When it does, it won't be in the form it's been shown off in sporadically over the last 10 months.

 

[Dave A]

We should all be happy with this new technology and instead I read the usual denigrators.

Making a wide sweeping general statement without quoing or at least directly pointing to what you are referring to won't win arguments of make very solid points. I'm seeing plenty of optomism here but also well reasonable reservations and plenty of unanswered questions. If you want to discuss a negative point, discuss it, but don't hide behind sweeping generalisations.

 

[Aymeric]

..and Sophy was first show off 10 months ago and it's seemingly still nowhere near ready to add to the game. When it does, it won't be in the form it's been shown off in sporadically over the last 10 months.

Except that it took to the track much earlier, before 2022, in particular the battle between Sophy and the Japanese pilots in July 2021. So there is no excuse that it will arrive in a few months. GTPlanet and GT TV said it, Sophy should arrive before the end of this year

 

[les_expos]

Except that it took to the track much earlier, before 2022, in particular the battle between Sophy and the Japanese pilots in July 2021. So there is no excuse that it will arrive in a few months. GTPlanet and GT TV said it, Sophy should arrive before the end of this year

And the article just said it really not ready to lunch 😭. Make a better ai kaz

 

[dabz343]

I'm kind of surprised at how negative people are. At worst, it will be better AI to race against...or customizable AI that is just a tad faster than you at the moment so you have a 'live ghost' to race against...or even, because it's a reinforced learning algo, it may have the ability to watch your laps and adopt your specific faults/habits so that you can race against a full grid of drivers exactly like you. Or if you prefer, customize your AI to have certain traits that you want to learn -- like trailbraking.

Why all the sour faces?

 

[Samus]

At worst, it will be better AI to race against

No, at "worst" it will be a training tool that supposedly will help you to race faster....against the still terrible race AI, or online players. Which is still not a bad thing, but it's not what many people are hoping for or expecting based on the promotion to date, where it has been shown exclusively as a competetive AI that players can race against.

Anyone hoping for better AI to actually race against across the solo game is seemingly going to be disappointed. Myself included.

Sophy should arrive before the end of this year

No chance. Maybe December 2023.

 

[Peter.]

I'm kind of surprised at how negative people are. At worst, it will be better AI to race against...or customizable AI that is just a tad faster than you at the moment so you have a 'live ghost' to race against...or even, because it's a reinforced learning algo, it may have the ability to watch your laps and adopt your specific faults/habits so that you can race against a full grid of drivers exactly like you. Or if you prefer, customize your AI to have certain traits that you want to learn -- like trailbraking.

Why all the sour faces?

Game design.

GT's AI are currently just obstacles in races that play out more like challenges instead of having any resemblance to real world racing. They have their reasons for doing this I guess, GTP is not the place to go to find out if the larger segment of casual and average players deeply object to this format, but for someone looking for a more realistic offline experience, it leaves a lot to be desired.

I think people are just hungry. This is a great game at its core that would be enhanced significantly if the AI could provide a challenge on their own without rubberbanding or entering races with cars that break the performance limits.

The frustration is because Sophy is so far playing out like a tool assisted speedrun of all the GT tracks instead of as the highly competent AI adversary people want. Implementing an AI that is, while fairly smart, also incredibly fast, perhaps than all humans, is kind of confusing to think about.

GT is in a weird place with its campaign mode where the short race format does not lend itself to having super fast AI that you have to race against to win in just a few laps, and we've yet to see either a less 'alien' version of Sophy that mere mortals can race against, or a potential change in the format of events to allow for a move away from chasing the rubberbanding rabbit.

For the record, though, I think Sophy is very cool and has immense potential. I can't wait to see how it is implemented. In other games that do have fast AI, there always comes a point where it feels like they are cheating because of hidden assists or having their own physics engine, and the wheel to wheel action also tends to end up either very predictable or incredibly erratic, both of which suck.

 

[dabz343]

No, at "worst" it will be a training tool that supposedly will help you to race faster....against the still terrible race AI, or online players. Which is still not a bad thing, but it's not what many people are hoping for or expecting.

Anyone hoping for better AI to actually race against across the solo game is seemingly going to be disappointed. Myself included.


No chance. Maybe December 2023.

I rest my case.

 

[Samus]

I rest my case.

What case? You just listed a bunch of things it might do. It also might not.

 

[dabz343]

Game design.

GT's AI are currently just obstacles in races that play out more like challenges instead of having any resemblance to real world racing. They have their reasons for doing this I guess, GTP is not the place to go to find out if the larger segment of casual and average players deeply object to this format, but for someone looking for a more realistic offline experience, it leaves a lot to be desired.

I think people are just hungry. This is a great game at its core that would be enhanced significantly if the AI could provide a challenge on their own without rubberbanding or entering races with cars that break the performance limits.

The frustration is because Sophy is so far playing out like a tool assisted speedrun of all the GT tracks instead of as the highly competent AI adversary people want. Implementing an AI that is, while fairly smart, also incredibly fast, perhaps than all humans, is kind of confusing to think about.

GT is in a weird place with its campaign mode where the short race format does not lend itself to having super fast AI that you have to race against to win in just a few laps, and we've yet to see either a less 'alien' version of Sophy that mere mortals can race against, or a potential change in the format of events to allow for a move away from chasing the rubberbanding rabbit.

For the record, though, I think Sophy is very cool and has immense potential. I can't wait to see how it is implemented. In other games that do have fast AI, there always comes a point where it feels like they are cheating because of hidden assists or having their own physics engine, and the wheel to wheel action also tends to end up either very predictable or incredibly erratic, both of which suck.

Fair criticisms, hope PD is observing.

Personally, I don't care what version of Sophy shows up. I don't need a personal coach, or find a bunch of clean drivers to race. But, I know that there are problems with AI in every driving sim and any improvements -- and any new dimensions -- made to elevating the enjoyment of my hobby is a positive step forward, and I welcome it.

What case? You just listed a bunch of things it might do. It also might not.

It's a simple statement. Figure it out, or not...I don't care.

 

[Samus]

I'm kind of surprised at how negative people are.

Personally, I don't care what version of Sophy shows up. I don't need a personal coach, or find a bunch of clean drivers to race.

Well, I think I've found why you're surprised. You're not one of the people expecting and wanting fast AI to properly race against.

 

[Bornhall]

It’s not restricted to the car type. the recent sophy race was different from the AMG in a previous race. I can see it easily trained for all car types. If you read the nature article about it it details all the training its way more flexible than what you are saying.

Indeed, it was a while ago I read the article in Nature, so my recall is lacking. I was mostly speculating, but for sure a model that is "generic" enough to be able to handle any car on any track is in this case "the holy grail" so to speak. My point is, if they wanted to, I'm sure they could have a model for a specific car and track as an event or challenge pretty much at any time. One does not preclude the other. The quote from the article does not specifically say that it is the same model for all the various cars, and I believe that's why there are the various "colours" of the Sophy pilots; they may be trained on different cars or car types.

In some areas I can see it's reaction time would need to be dumbed down to match a human reaction time, as we saw in earlier videos at Dragon Trail the AI could cut a certain corner which upset the car, but because it's ability over a most humans, it was able to stabilize the car and keep going.

In that particular case it's not so much that it has "superhuman" reactions, it's that most human pilots never attempts to upset the balance of the car to that degree. Hasn't those who've driven against Sophy even claimed that they have learned new techniques from watching how Sophy tackles certain parts of the tracks?

One could liken this to computer aided design, where a human would use known parameters and simple structures to achieve a goal, but a machine learning algorithm that can over and over and over and over iterate over a design, tweaking angles, thickness and such things, arrive at a design that no human would ever conceive of designing. Generative design, with a few constraints with regard to things like bolt holes and such things can create a part that is just as strong, or stronger, and lighter, especially in these times with additive manufacturing (or 3D-printing, really).

 

[dabz343]

It's the autonomous 'learning' bit of Sophy that's got me somewhat intrigued. Because AI's decision tree isn't the same as human -- wild, but interesting solutions may arise.But given how PD has bungled executions in the past, I'm not holding my breath...but I'm hoping PD will creative ways to wrap this around with the right content...at some point, someone will.