Motor City Tunes

Discussion in 'GT5 Tuning' started by Motor City Hami, Jan 21, 2011.

  1. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

    Messages:
    4,801
    Location:
    United States
    Welcome to Motor City Tunes. GT5 has surely evolved over two years of gaming. Game updates and patches have become a regular occurrence. The physics engine has seen major changes with update 2.0, 2.08 and now 2.09. If you are playing the game with 2.09, then it can be confusing to find tunes that were made for these new physics. I have reorganized the Motor City Tunes garage in order to make things easier to match up with the major physics updates. All tunes built before 2.09 (November 6, 2012) have been moved to the archive sections below. Some of these tunes still work pretty well, but others are complete garbage. Use them with caution or think of them as a starting point to build upon.

    As I did with my archived section, I will post new tunes within this opening post as well as quick tunes by drive train that can be used as a starting point or for a quick tune and drive. Enjoy the tunes and feel free to post feedback or ask for advice. If you like my tunes, feel free to send me obnoxiously bright green paints. I seem to be using a lot of them lately.

    2.11-2.12 Tunes
    Amuse S2000 R1 '04 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8430820#post8430820
    Audi RS 4 '01 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8289463#post8289463
    Camaro Z28 '69 - 500PP seasonal tune (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motor-city-tunes.167421/page-25#post-8992156
    Dodge Challenger SRT8 TC (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8321534#post8321534
    Ford GT '06 (G27) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8596917#post8596917
    Formula Gran Turismo (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8180508#post8180508
    Lamborghini Murcielago LP 670-4 Superveloce '09 (G27) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8572339#post8572339
    Mazda Roadster RS (NC) '07 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8448689#post8448689
    Mazda Roadster RS (NC) '07 Maxed (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8448747#post8448747
    Mazda RX8 Type S '03 - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8416697#post8416697
    Mine's BNR34 Skyline GT-R N1 Base '06 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8443886#post8443886
    Mini Cooper S Countryman '11 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8321694#post8321694
    Mini Cooper S '11 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8321613#post8321613
    Mini Cooper S '07 (DS3) Awarded GT Planet Tune of the Week April 4, 2013 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8321617#post8321617
    Mini Cooper S '05 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8321693#post8321693
    Mini Cooper S '02 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8321877#post8321877
    Mini Cooper 1.3l '98 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8321747#post8321747
    Mugen S2000 '00 (DS3) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8445144#post8445144
    NASCAR, Dirty NASCAR, updated (G27) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motor-city-tunes.167421/page-25#post-8937926
    RUF CTR "Yellow Bird Green With Envy" (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8334524#post8334524
    RUF CTR "Yellow Bird Evil Black Bird Within" (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8334525#post8334525
    Toyota Supra SZ-R '97 (G27) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8572226#post8572226

    2.10 Tunes
    Ford SVT F-150 Lightning '03 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8110781#post8110781
    2011 NASCAR Daytona Super Speedway (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8026014#post8026014
    2011 NASCAR Indy Super Speedway (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8026019#post8026019
    2011 NASCAR Road Course (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8026020#post8026020
    Mazda Eunos Roadster (NA Special Package) '89 (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8102948#post8102948
    Mazda Eunos Roadster J-Limited (NA) '91 (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8102936#post8102936
    Mazda Eunos Roadster VR-Ltd (NA) '95 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8088544#post8088544
    Mazda MX-5 Miata V-Special II (NA, J) '93 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8091938#post8091938
    Mazda MX-5 SR-LTD '97 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8088398#post8088398
    Mazda MX-5 Miata 1800 RS (NB,J) '04 (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8102957#post8102957
    Merc-Benz 190E Touring Car '92 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8135581#post8135581

    2.09 Tunes
    Acura NSX RM '91 @500PP Spa (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7881963#post7881963
    Camaro Z28 '69 - 500PP seasonal tune (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7905026#post7905026
    Corvette Z06 (C6) RM '06 @625PP Monza (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7884540#post7884540
    Corvette ZR1 (C6) RM '09 @625PP Monza (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7884532#post7884532
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia '07 Cape Ring/Nurb GPD (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7890478#post7890478
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia '07 Madrid (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7952899#post7952899
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia '07 Trial Mt. (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7953048#post7953048
    Ferrari Enzo '02 (DS3) - Jan 11, 2013 tune of the week - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7893374#post7893374
    Ford GT LM Spec II @625PP Monza (DS3) FITT Winner - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7884446#post7884446
    Honda Civic Type R (EK) '97 - 415 seasonal (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7838175#post7838175
    Honda Civic Type R (EP) '04 - 415 seasonal (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7835721#post7835721
    Honda Civic Type R '08 - 415 seasonal (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7832749#post7832749
    Honda S2000 Type V '03 - FITT Round 1 Winner (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7798359#post7798359
    Honda S2000 Type V '03 - FITT Round 2 Winner (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7824773#post7824773
    Honda Takata Dome NSX '03 (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7995370#post7995370
    Honda Takata Dome NSX '06 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7981002#post7981002
    Jaguar XJ13 Race Car - FITT 2nd Place - GP/D (G27) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7991446#post7991446
    Lotus Elise 111R '04 - TT #50 tune (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7851607#post7851607
    Pescarolo C60 Hybride - Judd Race Car '05 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7938092#post7938092
    Plymouth Cuda 440 Six Pack '71 (DS3) - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7954479#post7954479



    Testing Efforts
    I am currently on a mission to better understand the latest update. Here are some testing links that I have started and that the GTP community has done a great job at adding to.
    2.09 Tuning Tests by Motor City Tunes - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7818505#post7818505
    Camber Testing - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6706322#post6706322
    LSD Explained - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5283085#post5283085
    Rally Car Tune Build Process - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7959831#post7959831



    Quick Tunes - Put these on any car and just go have fun.

    FF Cars
    RH – move both front and rear right (negative) about half of available slider movement (like -12/-12 on a Honda Civic)
    Springs – front to ¾ of slider, rear to about ¼ of the slider (like 14/4 on a Honda Civic)
    Dampers ext 8/5
    Dampers comp 4/5
    ARB 2/6
    Camber 2.7/0.5
    Toe -0.25/-0.25
    LSD 7/12/5
    Brake balance 2/10

    FR Cars
    RH – move both front and rear right (negative) about half of available slider movement (like -15/-15 on a Honda S2000)
    Springs – front to middle of slider, rear to about 2.0 less than front (like 10.5/8.0 on a Honda S2000)
    Dampers ext 7/6
    Dampers comp 5/4
    ARB 4/3
    Camber 3.0/2.0
    Toe -0.15/0.05
    LSD 10/14/7
    Brake balance 4/6

    4WD Base Tune
    RH – move both front and rear right (negative) about half of available slider movement (like -15/-15 on a Subaru Impreza)
    Springs 12.5/5.0
    Dampers ext 9/4
    Dampers comp 5/4
    ARB 3/6
    Camber 2.8/1.0
    Toe -0.35/-0.15
    LSD Front 10/15/7
    LSD Rear 7/10/8
    Front/Rear Torque Split 40/60
    Brake balance 2/8

    MR Tunes
    RH – move both front and rear right (negative) about half of available slider movement
    Springs 10.0/12.5
    Dampers ext 8/6
    Dampers comp 4/6
    ARB 3/4
    Camber 2.8/1.5
    Toe -0.16/0.11
    LSD 12/14/7
    Brake 6/8

    Information about my wheel and DS3 mods
    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7953915#post7953915
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
  2. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

    Messages:
    4,801
    Location:
    United States
    GT5 2.09 Tuning Guide

    Installing parts to meet a PP limit

    Power - Try to use the power limiter as little as possible. The first click from 100% to 99.9% causes the biggest drop in horsepower. Try playing with different engine part combinations and take note of the HP and torque numbers for each combination. I like to add engine bits in this order:
    1. Titanium Racing Exhaust (or the biggest exhaust that you can fit under the PP limit) – The biggest power gain for the PP expense.
    2. Weight reduction stage 1
    3. Weight reduction stage 2
    4. ECU Tuning
    5. Sports Catalytic Converter
    6. Sports Exhaust Manifold or Sports Intake Manifold (both are equal)
    7. Air Filters
    8. Turbo Kits
    9. Supercharger

    Weight – Weight vs. power and which to add first seems to be a bit of a personal choice. Some tuners say strip all weight first, then add power. I say that it depends a bit on the car. On some cars, I see no difference in lap times between full weight reduction and equal PP level power additions. Below is my guide.
    • Cars with stock weight of 1000kg or less, I tend to add power first. If I do reduce weight, I will often add it back for better weight balance, especially on FF cars.
    • For 1200kg stock, I also like power, only using weight reduction to shift ballast. The game seems to like cars around 1200kg – kind of a sweet spot.
    • For around 1400kg stock I try to lower them to around 1200kg, depending upon the PP limit. If I don’t have enough PP room, a 1400 kg car will still handle pretty well.
    • 1500kg stock and above, these cars need to lose weight first. There is a significant handling gain available from the weight loss and they tend to come with more power anyway.

    Fully Customizable Transmission (two methods)

    Classic Close Ratio Flip
    Add any planned engine upgrades first.
    Reset gearbox to default.
    Set final drive all the way right (highest number)
    Set top speed all the way left (lowest number)
    Highest gear all the way right (I actually like to use nice round numbers, so almost all the way; nearest 5)
    2nd gear on low powered cars, move left a little to a round number.
    2nd gear on medium powered cars, move left about half way available on the slider.
    2nd gear on high powered cars, move most of the way left to a round number.
    Middle gears, set to even spacing between 2nd and the highest gear.
    1st gear, move slider left an appropriate amount for standing starts – low power, not much, high power most of the way.
    Reset final drive to the left until the car hits the rev limiter at the end of the longest straight.

    Low Final Close Ratio Flip
    Add any planned engine upgrades first.
    Reset gearbox to default.
    Set final drive at 4.000
    Set top speed all the way left (lowest number)
    Highest gear all the way right (I actually like to use nice round numbers, so almost all the way; nearest 5)
    Reset final drive all the way left and then evaluate the top speed window. Can the car top out at the end of the longest straight? If so, move to the next step. If not, move back to the beginning step above and try 3.500, 3.000, 4,500, 5,000, etc. The goal is to have the final drive number be as low as possible and still top out the rev limiter on the longest straight. Some have tested this and have found slightly faster straight away speeds.
    2nd gear on low powered cars, move left a little to a round number.
    2nd gear on medium powered cars, move left about half way available on the slider.
    2nd gear on high powered cars, move most of the way left to a round number.
    Middle gears, set to even spacing between 2nd and the highest gear.
    1st gear, move slider left an appropriate amount for standing starts – low power, not much, high power most of the way.

    Limited Slip Differential
    I have spent more time testing the LSD in Gran Turismo than anyone. It has worked very similarly since GT3. This IS how the LSD works in GT5.

    LSD Accel – This setting has one purpose, to manage inside and outside wheel spin. If the inside wheel spins first, raise this setting. If the outside wheel spins first, lower this setting. Most often the tire in need of help will turn red upon throttle application from the corner apex. Sometimes, a car will get loose on you, but neither tire turns red. Puts two or three levels harder tires on the car and mash the throttle in the slow, 2nd gear corners and you should be able to find which tire turns red first. Keep adjusting until both drive tires spin at the same time and this setting will be optimized. On a few cars, you will find a situation where one click higher will make the outside tire turn just a little red and one click lower will make the inside tire a little red. On these rare cars, you cannot fully optimize this setting and will need to choose one.

    LSD Decel – This setting has one purpose, to manage stability under braking, turn-in and when coasting. If your car is loose (oversteer) in these situations, raise this setting. If your car has understeer during these conditions, lower this setting. Nearly all of my under 550PP street car tunes have settings between 5 and 7. On pure race cars like LMP cars, JGTC, FGT, F1, 2J, etc., I run much higher decel settings.

    LSD Initial Torque – This setting determines how much power is needed to activate the diff – to make it lock. What the means in GT5 is that a higher number produces more understeer and a lower number produces more oversteer. It is that simple. Since the 2.09 update this characteristic is more pronounced and even more noticeable from apex to exit.

    The LSD does not add or subtract acceleration. The LSD cannot send more or less power to the drive train. The LSD can only distribute the given amount of power to each of the drive wheels. I see many on this site confuse the LSD with slipper clutches. This must come from R/C off road racing where slipper clutches are popular. In R/C racing a sipper clutch is added as a bolt on to the drive train and will actually slip as power is applied and grip in the higher revs to keep the rear wheels from spinning. There is still an LSD in those gear boxes and they are not set up to slip. They are set up to do the only job of the LSD, to distribute power from side to side under acceleration and braking. If you set them up to slip, they melt. Same goes for real world, if your LSD slips, it melts. Heat is the #1 enemy of an LSD. This is why we have traction control in the real world and in GT5. Traction control limits power through the drive train to the wheels, not the LSD.

    Suspension Settings

    Ride Height Adjustment (mm)
    I believe that the tuning effects of ride height have been reduced in the 2.09 physics change. The do seem to still work as a fine tuning effect, but don’t expect ride height to be the “fix” anymore for a bad tune. Below is a visual representation of the way that I see ride height. There seems to be a sweet spot then a rapid decent of usefulness if you go too low. For some cars it may be at -15, others lower. I haven’t liked any car at full ride height reduction.

    [​IMG]

    Settings:
    • For smooth tracks (90% of tracks in the game), I like to move both front and rear lower by about ¾ of the available drop distance.
    • For bumpier tracks like Nurburgring, Trail Mountain, Eifel’s hill changes, etc., I like to move both front and rear ½ of the available drop distance.
    • For more front grip than rear, use a lower front RH than rear.
    • For more rear grip than front, use a lower rear RH than front.

    Spring Rate

    General stiffness:
    • For street cars 400PP and under, I like spring rates just below the middle of the slider
    • For street cars 500PP and under, I like springs at the middle of the slider.
    • Street cars over 500PP, I like spring rates slightly above the middle of the slider.
    • For higher powered cars and race cars, I like stiffer springs, near the ¾ mark on the slider.
    Front/Rear balance:
    This is 100% backward from the real world and I cannot explain why. PD programming I guess. The in-game description reads like real world, but this setting does not do what the in-game guide describes.
    • For more front grip than rear, run higher front springs than rear
    • For more rear grip than front, run higher rear springs than front

    Dampers

    The in-game guide is quite vague on this setting saying only what extension and compression are intended to do in the real world and a mention that “as with spring rate, adjusting the strength of the front and rear damper compression can influence how the car steers.” The guide doesn’t provide any suggestion on which way to move settings to induce oversteer or understeer, just that dampers can have an effect. Below are my findings.

    General settings:
    A general rule that I use is that dampers need to match the spring rates. If you maxed the spring rates and set dampers at 1, you will have a very stiff, springy, bouncy car. In contrast, maxed dampers with super soft springs will create a mushy feeling car – one that won’t turn in very well and may not stop steering when you want it to coming off the corner.
    • Spring rates set to the middle of the slider need dampers set with extension just to the right of the middle (say 6) and compression just to the left (say 4).
    • For lighter spring rate settings or heavier spring rates, the dampers need to move to be at similar spots on the slider.

    Front/Rear balance:
    Using dampers for changes to front/rear grip can be a bit confusing and time consuming. From my tuning experiences, I see dampers at a mid-level of tuning effectiveness for changing grip balance. You will see much bigger gains from LSD, toe, camber and ARBs. If you are going to be spending some time with the car, dampers are worth testing. The challenge that I have seen is that some cars respond to increased damper splits and others just don’t. There can be a lot of trial and error involved. Make small changes to the front, then retest against your ghost. Then make small changes to the rear, rinse and repeat. Below is my approach.

    • For more front grip than rear, do two things
    1. Run a much wider extension/compression on the front, but still relative to spring rates (i.e., medium heavy springs about ¾ across the slider, front dampers at extension 9 and compression 5)
    2. Run extension/compression near equal on the rear, but still relative to spring rates (i.e., springs at middle of the slider, rear dampers at extension/compression 5/5 or 5/4.
    The theory behind these settings is that the front settings will drop the nose quickly when braking hold the nose of the car down longer when accelerating, providing more front grip through the corner. The rear settings will allow the rear of the car to raise and lower equally, thus giving it a quick lift under braking, providing more front than rear balance. The trial and error part comes in how far to make the front split and how close to keep the rear split. On some cars I only need to do the front split and I will leave the rear at my standard two numbers apart. To complicate things even more, I have run rear settings with extension lower than compression to make the rear of the car snap up quickly (FF and rally cars only, so far).

    • For more rear grip than front, do the opposite described above.
    1. Narrow split of front extension/compression.
    2. Wider split of rear extension/compression.

    Anti-Roll Bars

    Similar to ride height, I do not think that anti-roll bars provide completely linear levels of grip across the settings (1 and 7 are not most grip and least grip). If the number one setting was the highest level of grip, we would all just set the front to one on every tune that we build. Instead, I think the sweet spot is always somewhere in the middle and trial and error is needed to find it. It’s not about one best number for all cars. Groupings of cars have different needs. Low powered cars on comfort tires work better with lower ARB settings. On the other hand, high powered race cars on racing tires tend to like higher settings. It is a bit about feel first, then about lap time comparisons for fine tuning. Drive the car in chase cam or watch the replay in chase cam. Watch the car’s attitude in the corners. If it leans over or sways back and forth through switch backs, the ARB settings are too soft. Now this may only be on one end of the car so change front and rear separately. If the car seems to sit flat with no body roll and seems to four wheel slide in the corners, the ARB settings are too stiff.

    ARBs and front/rear grip:
    • For more front grip than rear, run lower front settings than rear
    • For more rear grip than front, run higher front settings than rear

    Camber Angle (-)

    Camber is another setting with a sweet spot, more of a bell curve and not linear across the entire scale. Below is a visual representation of the change in lateral grip from changes in camber.

    [​IMG]

    The sweet spot along this range will vary by tire softness. Here is what I have found for the different tires in the game.
    • Comfort tire sweet spot is 1.5 to 2.2
    • Sport tire sweet spot is 2.0 to 2.8
    • Racing tire sweet spot is 2.5 to 3.5
    • Dirt tire sweet spot is 3.0 to 4.5
    • Snow tire - have not tested

    Camber and front/rear grip:
    • For more front grip than rear, run higher front camber settings than rear. I will put the front camber on the sweet spot and lower the rear camber until I have removed enough rear grip to get the car to rotate.
    • For more rear grip than front, run lower front camber settings than rear. I will set the rear camber on the sweet spot and lower front camber until I have removed enough front grip to stabilize the car’s rotation.

    Toe Angle

    This is a very useful setting. I think most people are too conservative with these settings and try to keep them close to zero. There is a belief about the use of toe (and camber) increasing tire wear. I just haven’t seen it, nor have I seen anyone post any concrete tests to prove it. I see the exact same thing in the real world. People will run zero toe on their Spec Miata and claim that by running any toe that it will scrub a noticeable amount of straight line speed. Look at most road racing circuits and break down the miles into straight segments and turns… most have more miles of corners, right. I want to be faster than everyone else in the corners. That is what wins races – corner speed. If I can exit a corner leading onto a straight at 3 miles per hour faster than you, I will be 10 miles per hour faster than you at the end of the straight and be in perfect position to pass you in the easiest place to pass. Don’t be afraid to use this setting to give the car what it is asking for, either front or rear grip.

    Also, toe settings do seem to be completely linear across the settings. Rear toe has a more significant effect on car rotation. Front toe doesn’t seem to add much corner grip – just moves the grip to the part of the corner where you need it. I use front toe to balance the corner for a smooth entry, mid-corner apex and exit.

    Front toe:
    • Higher negative number, more mid corner and exit grip and slightly reduced turn in. Nearly all of my cars use negative front toe.
    • Zero is a neutral setting.
    • Higher positive number, better turn in and less mid-corner and exit grip. Some high powered cars like LMP cars will have a low negative front toe number, neutral or a bit of positive front toe.

    Rear toe:
    • Higher negative number, more oversteer, more rotation. Don’t be afraid of negative rear toe on FR cars. If the car isn’t rotating, add negative toe. Most 4WD and FF tunes have negative rear toe.
    • Zero is a neutral setting.
    • Higher positive number, more planted rear, less rotation. Most of my FR, MR and RR tunes have some positive toe.

    Brake Balance

    I have tested the brakes over and over and have found the same results every time. Here is what I have found:
    • Brake balance numbers are strength numbers, one being least braking power and 10 being the most. The only reason to not run 10 is brake lock up. I see this being just like running softer brake pads in the real world. If you run too soft of a pad (10) on the wrong end of the car, the brakes are going to lock up.
    • Rear lock up is hard to detect in the game. Front tires will smoke and turn red. Rear tires are more difficult to detect. On dirt, instead of tire squeal, PD programmed the engine noise to stop when the brakes lock. On tarmac, use the tire heat indicators to set the front and go to the test track or Top Gear track to test stopping distances.
    • Wheels and DS3 controllers need different settings. The DS3 controller seems to have an assist programmed in to make up for the shorter analog stick distance. You can get away with very high rear settings and much lower front settings to induce some trail braking oversteer. With the wheel, I tend to run more even brake balance and often with a bit higher front settings. The foot pedals are so much better for modulating brakes that lock up happens less often.

    Ballast Position

    The in-game guide is useless for ballast. Ballast position can be useful for changing the front/rear grip characteristics of a car, but it cannot add grip like camber, toe, ARBs, ride height, etc. If you have a sliding car, you need to get the other settings right first. Also, 50/50 is not best for every car. Ballast is tricky because it can help add grip to one set of tires while taking it away from the other, which is good until you reach the maximum grip level of that set of tires.
    • Moving ballast to a sliding end of the car can increase grip, if the tires have not reached their maximum grip level.
    • If tires on one end of the car are turning red, there is too much weight on that end of the car. Moving the ballast position away from the red tires can actually increase grip on that end of the car.

    Downforce

    Max aero on both front and rear is not always the fastest. That is another famous GT5 belief that is pure myth. Aero can be a valuable tool for changing front/rear grip. Most cars in GT5 suffer from understeer, so if PP limits are not an issue, I normally max front aero then adjust rear aero to get the desired balance between downforce and rear rotation.

    Downforce vs. Power in PP racing:
    This is a bit subjective based on the car, the track, etc. I never add the wing to street cars for PP racing. I would rather add power and remove weight and rear downforce only adds understeer. I never, ever, ever, ever add a wing to street cars if there are other options to reach the PP limit. As for race cars that come with downforce installed, I normally run as much front as I can get and rear at a bit higher number (like 50/60). If the PP limit is low and I must choose between power and downforce, it is truly a balance based on car and track. I won a FITT tuner challenge at Monza using absolute minimum aero settings on both front and rear. That track rewards power. That same car on Trial Mountain was nearly uncontrollable without aero and absolutely no fun to drive. I will try to get away with as little downforce as necessary to keep the car on the road. It is a balance and really based on your driving preference.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
    DaBomm4 likes this.
  3. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

    Messages:
    4,801
    Location:
    United States
    Pre 2.09 Archive

    Welcome to Motor City Tunes. I started this garage to help the beginner. It has now evolved into more. If I had to write a mission statement for how I tune it would be, "simplify and get fast!" I don't spit out a bunch of techy overblown theories. I also don’t believe all the hype around all of the tuning settings being backward, but more on this later. I will just put out there what has worked for me and hope that it helps people enjoy the game more, especially the rookie tuner or non-tuner. If I can help you to become better at tweaking cars to work with your driving style and skills, then the mission will be accomplished.

    How to get around this garage? I will always add new tuned vehicles to this op. I pretty much just tune what I race in the game. Occasionally I will tune a car upon request and post. In the following few posts, you will find three sections of tuning advice to get you started; non-tuner, beginner and advanced. These sections will show my tuning thoery.

    My street cred:
    I have been racing the Gran Turismo series since GT1. I completed 100% of the first four GT games, gold all licenses and can smoke most AI cars with 200 hp less. I also grew up in a racing family which allowed for me to crew for my father and cousin in oval racing. I was introduced to remote controlled cars at the age of 10, went on to race for various factory teams and won a national title in 12th scale on-road. Now I race real cars in the Sports Car Club of America – 4 years in a Honda Civic and now entering my 4th year in Spec Miata. I have always gravitated toward understanding suspensions. With similar hp, corner speed wins. It doesn’t matter what I race, my cars are always among the best handling at the track.

    I truly hope you find something within this garage that helps you to improve your tuning ability. Feel free to PM me and ask for advice on tayloring one of my tunes to better fit you.

    Pre 2.09 tune archive:

    2.0 Tunes
    2010 Daytona Oval Tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214991#post6214991
    2011 Daytona Oval "Dirty NASCAR" tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6901333#post6901333
    2011 NASCAR Indy Oval - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7316620#post7316620
    2011 NASCAR Road Course Tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214996#post6214996
    Acura NSX '91 RM https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6201725#post6201725
    Alfa Romeo Giulia T22 '65 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214934#post6214934
    Audi A4 Touring Car '04 Red Bull - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206246#post6206246
    Audi R8 LMS Race Car '09 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206268#post6206268
    BMW 2002 Turbo '73 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206217#post6206217
    BMW 2002 Turbo '73 - 500PP tune for Cote d' Azur https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6488790#post6488790
    BMW M3 GTR '03 - 500PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206222#post6206222
    Chaparral 2J Race Car '70 (650PP B-Spec Seasonal Tune) https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6306294#post6306294
    Corvette ZR1 RM (pdf 2) and https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6767785#post6767785
    Ferrari 512BB '76 - 500PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214923#post6214923
    Ferrari F10 - Monaco online tune - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7214503#post7214503
    Ferrari F10 - Indy Road Course 870PP seasonal tune - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7308057#post7308057
    Fiat 500 1.2 8V Lounge SS '08 - 430PP https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7227276#post7227276
    Focus ST '06 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214862#post6214862
    Focus RS WRC 07 '08 dirt & snow tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214960#post6214960
    Ford GT LM Spec II Test Car https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6201843#post6201843
    Ford Mustang V8 GT Coupe Premium '07 - maxed Laguna Seca https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7175866#post7175866
    Ford Mustang V8 GT Coupe Premium '07 - 470PP seasonal https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7214453#post7214453
    Formula Gran Turismo https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206147#post6206147
    Honda Civic Type R RM '97 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206201#post6206201
    Honda Civic Type R '08 - 450 PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6201799#post6201799
    Honda Civic 1500 '83 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214878#post6214878
    Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '04 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6217400#post6217400
    Honda NSX Type R '92 - 520PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6870148#post6870148
    Honda S2000 Type V '03 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7798359#post7798359
    Honda S2000 '03 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214907#post6214907
    Honda S800 '66 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6223568#post6223568
    Honda Mugen Motul Civic Si Race Car '87 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6223649#post6223649
    Honda S800 RSC Race Car '68 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214940#post6214940
    Isuzu Bellett 1600 GR-R '69 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6223536#post6223536
    Lotus Elise 111R '04 FITT Winner https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7586896#post7586896
    Lotus Elise 111R '04 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6201823#post6201823
    Lotus Evora '09 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214980#post6214980
    Mercedes-Benz 190 E Touring Car '92 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206256#post6206256
    Mercedes 190 E 2.5 - 16 Evolution II '91 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206233#post6206233
    Mazda RX-8 Type S '07 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214887#post6214887
    Mazda Roadster 1600 NR-A (NB) '04 Standard https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6223625#post6223625
    Mazda Roadster RS (NC) '07 - 400PP Nurburgh Tune - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6657772#post6657772
    Mazda Roadster RS (NC) '07 - maxed out Spec 2.0 tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6217101#post6217101
    Mazda RX-7 Touring Car 575PP Online Tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6678836#post6678836
    Mini Cooper 1.3 '98 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6206240#post6206240
    Mini Cooper S '07 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214895#post6214895
    Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IV Rally Car '97 - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7569685#post7569685
    Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IV GSR '96 - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7569716#post7569716
    Mitsubishi CZ-3 Tarmac Rally Car - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7572491#post7572491
    Mitsubishi CZ-3 Tarmac '01 - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7572511#post7572511
    Nissan Fairlady Z 280Z-L 2 Seater (S130) '78 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6223494#post6223494
    Nissan GT-R Black Edition '12 - 550PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6879476#post6879476
    Nissan R390 GT1 Road Car '98 - 600PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6223585#post6223585
    Nissan Silvia Spec-R Aero RM '02 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6201774#post6201774
    Takata Dome NSX '03 - 500HP https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7095220#post7095220
    Takata Dome NSX '06 - Online B-spec Spa tune on sport softs
    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6445260#post6445260
    Pagani Zonda R '09 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6205854#post6205854
    Peugeot 908 HDI FAP '10 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6201744#post6201744
    Pescarolo C60 Hybride - Judd Race Car '05 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6228514#post6228514
    Shelby Cobra 427 '66 - 450PP seasonal tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7214463#post7214463
    Shelby Series One Super Charged '03 - 465PP https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7217679#post7217679
    Subaru Impreza WRX STi '07 - FITT Challenge Winner https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7510068#post7510068
    Subaru Impreza WRC 2008 - FITT Challenge Winner https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7509975#post7509975
    Suzuki Cervo SR '07 - 405PP https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7221470#post7221470
    Suzuki Cappuccino RM '95 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6201790#post6201790
    Toyota 2000GT '67 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6223514#post6223514
    Toyota 86 GT '12 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6853767#post6853767
    Toyota LFA '10 - 550PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6893024#post6893024
    Toyota Supra RZ '97 - 475PP seasonal tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7214461#post7214461
    Toyota 7 Race Car '70 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6223600#post6223600
    VW Golf IV GTI RM '01 - 450PP tune https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6214915#post6214915

    For the Non-Tuner:
    This is for people who have the most fun in GT5 from the driving, not tuning. There are a million other guides out there that try to explain every tuning option and what it does, but few that are simple enough for the average Joe who just wants to drive. I hope that this is a helpful guide for throwing a quick tune on a car and getting to the driving fun. You can obviously fine tune beyond my recommendations here (as I do on cars that I plan to use often), but not everyone is into that level of tuning effort. I don’t’ claim to have the fastest tunes on GT Planet, but I can, very quickly, get rid of the push that most cars in the GT series seem to have. In A-Spec, I normally buy a car, change the oil, add sports soft tires, full suspension, a limited slip differential and then go racing.

    Quick tunes:

    FF Cars
    Upgrades: sports softs, LSD, full suspension, full transmission
    Initial Torque 8
    Acceleration 10
    Braking 5
    Ride Height: front -10, rear -10
    Springs: front 8, rear 12
    Damper extend: front 4, rear 6
    Damper compress: front 2, rear 5
    Anti-roll Bars: front 3, rear 5
    Camber: front 2.5, rear 2.0
    Toe: front -0.25, rear -0.25
    Brake balance: 4 front, 6 rear

    FR Cars
    Upgrades: sports softs, LSD, full suspension, full transmission
    Initial Torque 10
    Acceleration 15
    Braking 5
    Ride Height: front -10, rear -10
    Springs: front 12.5, rear 10
    Damper extend: front 7, rear 5
    Damper compress: front 5, rear 4
    Anti-roll Bars: front 5, rear 3
    Camber: front 2.5, rear 2.0
    Toe: front -0.25, rear +0.20
    Brake balance: 4 front, 6 rear

    4wd Cars
    August 31, 2012 - go directly to the Subaru WRX Sti 2007 listed above. This is my best 4wd tune to date. I think this may replace the settings that I have listed below in this beginners guide.
    Upgrades: sports softs, LSD, full suspension, full transmission
    Electronic sensing center diff 20 front and 80 rear
    Initial Torque 7 front and 10 rear
    Acceleration 7 front and 12 rear
    Braking 5 front and 10 rear
    Ride Height: front -10, rear -10
    Springs: front 12.5, rear 12.5
    Damper extend: front 6, rear 6
    Damper compress: front 5, rear 5
    Anti-roll Bars: front 5, rear 5
    Camber: front 2.5, rear 2.0
    Toe: front -0.25, rear +0.00
    Brake balance: 4 front, 6 rear

    4wd Dirt/Snow Rally Cars
    August 31, 2012 - go directly to the Subaru WRC 2008 listed above. This is my best dirt tune to date.
    Upgrades: dirt/snow tires, LSD, full suspension, full transmission
    Electronic sensing center diff 40 front and 60 rear
    Initial Torque 10 front and 10 rear
    Acceleration 15 front and 20 rear
    Braking 5 front and 10 rear
    Ride Height: front 0, rear 0 on rally car or raise +20 on street car
    Springs: front 8.0, rear 8.0
    Damper extend: front 6, rear 6
    Damper compress: front 3, rear 3
    Anti-roll Bars: front 5, rear 3
    Camber: front 2.5, rear 2.0
    Toe: front -0.10, rear +0.00
    Brake balance: 4 front, 10 rear

    MR Cars
    Upgrades: sports softs, LSD, full suspension, full transmission
    Initial Torque 15
    Acceleration 20
    Braking 10
    Ride Height: front -10, rear -10
    Springs: front 11, rear 12.5
    Damper extend: front 6, rear 7
    Damper compress: front 4, rear 5
    Anti-roll Bars: front 4, rear 4
    Camber: front 2.7, rear 2.5
    Toe: front -0.20, rear +0.20
    Brake balance: 4 front, 6 rear

    RR Cars
    Upgrades: sports softs, LSD, full suspension, full transmission
    Initial Torque 25
    Acceleration 40
    Braking 30
    Ride Height: front -10, rear -10
    Springs: front 11, rear 12.5
    Damper extend: front 6, rear 7
    Damper compress: front 4, rear 5
    Anti-roll Bars: front 5, rear 3
    Camber: front 2.0, rear 3.0
    Toe: front +0.20, rear +0.50
    Brake balance: 6 front, 3 rear
    Traction control: 3 with really tough to tame cars

    For the beginning tuner:
    Let’s start with a bit of information about Limited Slip Differentials in the game. For some reason in GT5, the LSD rules. It acts like a “super tune” and seems to override most other adjustments. Have you ever built a car and tuned it for max front grip (softest springs, softest sway bar, soft tires, lower ride height, toe out, good camber) and least rear grip (heaviest springs, heaviest sway bar, hard tires, higher ride height, max rear tow out, zero camber) and the car still pushed? I find this really frustrating. Although the game has tuning tips built in that claim these adjustments offer more front or rear grip, often, very little happens, even with very aggressive changes. How can I max out the settings and still have a car push?

    Add the LSD and this all changes. A properly set up LSD will make the rest of the tuning adjustments come to life. There are three LSD settings; initial torque, acceleration sensitivity and braking sensitivity. I start my tunes with the LSD settings listed in the non-tuner section above, then fine tune from there. I recommend that the beginning tuner spend most of their early tuning efforts on learning LSDs. Here is a link to a great thread with LSD theories from most of the tuning garages on GT Planet. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=203009

    My theory on LSD tuning is clear and simple. This is what the LSD does in GT5.

    Initial Torque:
    Lower number, a more open diff = better turning /more oversteer
    Higher number, a diff closer to lock = more planted/more understeer

    Accel:
    Lower number, a more open diff when on throttle = better turning / more oversteer, and more possibility for inside wheel spin when on throttle
    Higher number, a diff closer to lock when on throttle = more planted / more understeer and less possibility for inside wheel spin when on throttle

    Decel:
    Lower number, a more open diff when off throttle = better turning /more oversteer when off throttle
    Higher number, a diff closer to lock when off throttle = more control /more understeer when off throttle

    Decel/Accel:
    These need to be tuned together. This is how you balance the attitude of the car. Decel affects braking through apex or just before throttle application. Accel affects from apex or throttle application through corner exit. You should use Accel/Decel to balance a car all the way through the corner – it should be smooth, not push in, understeer out or the opposite.

    Let’s go into a little more detail. Take your car to the track with these initial settings. Run a few laps and pay attention to the car’s attitude entering the corner, coasting through the middle of long corners and exiting corners. Does the car spin the inside tire on corner exit? Is it squirrely in the braking zone or does it try to spin out on turn in? Does it push on entry and you can’t get down to the apex? Does it push on exit when you get back to the gas or does it try to spin out at that point? Take that knowledge read on.

    Fine tuning initial torque: Initial torque determines how much work the LSD will do. I find that cranking this number way up tends to make cars push more. If you are smoking one of the two drive tires while exiting corners, increase this number. If not, leave it alone at the default 10. Here is where I tend to end up if I am fine tuning. FF cars under 400 hp set at 8. Most cars under 800 hp set at 10. Cars over 800 hp set at 15+. I rarely set this higher than 15. As stated, most of my cars are at 10 because I believe that LSD accel and decel have a larger effect on overall handling.

    Fine tuning acceleration sensitivity: Accel affects the car anytime you are on throttle; primarily apex through corner exit. If your car pushes when you get back on the gas, lower the accel number. If the car tries to spin out while on the gas on exit, raise this number. I tend to make changes 5 increments at a time, then go back to the track for a few laps.

    Fine tuning braking sensitivity: This number affects the car anytime you are off throttle; braking zone down to apex and coasting through a long corner. If the car is really loose in the braking zone or tries to spin out on turn in, raise the braking sensitivity number. If the car pushes on entry and you cannot get down to the apex, lower the number. I tend to make changes 5 increments at a time, then go back to the track for a few laps.

    That’s the basics on LSDs. I can improve a car within 15 min, a few laps at a time. Getting the LSD right will make the other suspension adjustments all work as the game says they should work.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  4. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

    Messages:
    4,801
    Location:
    United States
    Pre 2.09 Archive

    Motor City Tunes – GT5 Advanced Tuning – “learning to fine tune for your driving style”

    In this topic I will cover how I tune in GT5 for road racing. I am neither a drag racer nor a big oval racer, so I will leave that tuning to others to solve. This guide will focus purely on road racing on tarmac.

    I do feel the need to state my beliefs on the many conversations around suspension settings being programmed backward in GT5. I am 100% against this notion. In no way do I believe that PD could have made that big of an error while programming one of the best racing simulators on the planet. It would be total rookie league and I just don’t buy it. Considering the hours of programming and the racing experience of many on their staff, the driving engine was the center of their efforts in making this game. I firmly believe that the things other tuners are feeling that lead them to believe in the backward settings conspiracy are the product of something else in their tune.

    There are two important items to consider when tuning the suspension in GT5. First, the Limited Slip Differential has a major effect on handling. I believe it to be “the super tune.” I have written a whole chapter on LSDs (see above and this LSD Guide Summary https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=203009) so I won’t rehash them here. I recommend that you learn how to tune the LSD, then return here to read the rest of this topic. Second, all settings work together. Adjusting one thing can have an effect on others, just like in the real world. It is difficult to isolate one setting and find all of the available corner speed, so I’m not sure what to think about the single variable testing that some are doing on GT Planet. One person will post say a camber setting test with results going in one direction, and then someone else, doing a similar test, will have findings far away on the scale. I applaud these tuners for trying to help the community with these types of tests, but I haven’t seen many results that a majority of the tuning community is willing to write as law. The settings all work together so there is more of a feel to things than true absolutes. I do know one thing, to truly learn what these settings do in GT5; you must adjust one setting at a time, by a few increments up or down. I’m not able to learn anything by slamming to the lowest setting, then the highest, so I don’t recommend it for you either. Fine tuning can take time and a bit of trial and error. This is about matching the car to your driving style so few “rules of thumb” will be an exact match for you.

    I am already a few paragraphs in, so enough precursors and positioning, let’s get to how I tune. I tend to think of tuning settings in two categories; strength settings and mild adjustments. When I first begin tuning a new car, I am looking for some quick gains and some immediate satisfaction for speed. I start with an overall basic tune (see non-tuners guide above) then fine tune the strength settings first. The mild settings may or may not get fine tuning, depending upon how much I like the car and how much I think I will use it in the future. Below are the descriptions of the strength and mild adjustments and their tuning effect.

    STRENGTH SETTINGS
    These are big swings at the setup. Adjusting any of these should make an immediate change in the car’s behavior and shave large amounts of lap time. Also, if you are way off the mark of what the car likes for these settings, no other settings will be able to save the tune. In rank order, this is my list of strength tuning adjustments.
    1. Limited Slip Differential
    2. Center Differential on 4wd cars
    3. Anti-Roll Bars
    4. Spring Rate/Dampers (listed together for a reason to be explained later in this topic)
    5. Ride Height (also works somewhat together with springs)
    6. Transmission

    LSD – See previous post for adjustment method. Again, the LSD makes a significant difference in the handling of the car. If the LSD settings are way off, nothing will save the tune.

    4wd LSDs and Center Differential – I will flat out admit that my 4wd tarmac tunes are good, but not elite. I tend to make them handle more like rear wheel drive cars to get the speed out of them. I find that the center differential adjustment is a balance between understeer (50/50 setting) and over steer (90/10 setting). You will see that most of my 4wd tunes have center diff settings between around 15 and 20, sometimes up to 30 front bias for pavement. Dirt is a different story and I usually tune between 30 and 50 front balance.

    I don’t think I will be able to maximize the speed available from the center diff without conquering the 4wd LSD settings first. It feels like I should be able to get a 4wd car to launch off the corner a little faster (again, fast, but not elite). I have done a great deal of testing with LSDs on 4wd cars, but haven’t found consistent fast results. Closer to locked front diffs did work on some dirt tunes, but produced awful push on tarmac. Low rear LSD settings also worked somewhat on dirt, but terrible on asphalt. My only real world experience with 4wd tuning is in remote controlled car racing, with touring cars on carpet. We ran very close to locked front diffs with heavy grease and just barely locked rear diffs with light grease. Locked front/loose rear just didn’t produce positive results on tarmac in GT5. Where I have landed on 4wd LSDs is lower settings in the front (noting above 10) and rear settings closer to my rear wheel drive tunes (10/20/5).

    I know that there are faster tuners out there for 4WD cars, so try some of their LSD settings and let me know if you learn anything worth sharing. I will keep testing in hopes to elevate my 4wd tunes to elite status.

    Anti-Roll Bars – First, what these do in the real world. When the car enters a corner, weight is transferred to the outside wheels and off of the inside. This is called body roll. Anti-roll bars were designed to reduce this affect. The advantage to limiting body roll is that the car can maintain more grip on the inside tires. A car with no anti-roll bars will tend to overload the outside tires and push them past their maximum available grip, while leaving the inside tires used far below their ability. We use anti-roll bars to keep from pushing the outside tires to their max and attempting to keep enough weight on the inside tires so that they can assist more during cornering. Outside tires at 95% grip and inside tires at 50% will be much faster than outside at 100% and inside at 25%.

    We can also use anti-roll bars to change the front/rear grip balance. Consider two different drive trains. Take a FR drive car and put 5 front/2 rear anti-roll bars. The front will limit body roll more efficiently than the rear. The big front bar will keep the cars body from rolling, but with the softer rear bar, more weight will load to the outside rear tire. The counter effect of the rear weight load will actually unload weight from the inside front. A car with these settings will have more rear grip (weight has been forced to transfer to the outside rear) and less front grip (weight is forced off of the inside front). Do the opposite with a FF drive car. Put 2 front/5 rear anti-roll bars. The rear will keep body roll to a minimum, but the front will allow for some weight transfer. With these settings, weight will be forced to the outside front and off of the inside rear. On the SCCA Honda Civic that I raced, we ran such a stiff rear bar that the inside rear wheel would actually lift off of the track in most corners.

    So how does the real world relate to GT5 and what are the simple rules to fine tune? I have said it before and I will say it again here. I do not believe for a second that this setting has been programmed backward. Fix your LSD and you’ll see this setting work as described in the game. Maxing out the anti-roll bar settings in either direction doesn’t seem to produce advantages. Full hard, 7 front/7 rear seems to lose grip on most cars. Full soft, 1 front/1 rear allows the car to lean in the corners and tends to produce some mid corner grip, but at the expense of entry and exit speed. I tend to use settings between 6 and 2, but what is more important is the balance between front and rear. Numbers set far apart (6/2 or 2/6) will produce more grip on the low number end of the car. The weight of the car, power and tire selection dictates my starting point for anti-roll bars. Heavier car, high power and racing softs will put me closer to 6 as a starting point. The drive line determines the front/rear balance that I start with. FF gets softer front. FR gets softer rear. MR and 4wd cars get equal front/rear. RR cars get slightly softer rear.

    Spring Rate/Dampers – Still within the strength adjustments on my list above, but ranking 4th on effectiveness. There is a wide range of spring rates that will work well in GT5 so this portion of the section may sound a bit relaxed. I like softer spring rates (settings bar half way or below) on bumpy tracks or elevation change tracks like Nurburgring, Trail Mountain, Circuit de la Sarthe, Laguna Seca and Deep Forest. And, I like harder spring rates (bar half way or above) everywhere else.

    I haven’t seen advantage to maxing out spring rates in either direction. In fact, I find that PD has given us a fine starting point to spring rates for most cars – or at least given an indication of what the car is looking for. I think PD must have spent some time profiling spring rates from real world cars. For most race cars in the game, I start with the original in-game setting and fine tune from there, if necessary. For most street cars that I intend to run on sport soft tires, I raise the spring rates a bit to around the middle, but keep the front rear balance relative to the original in-game settings. For example, a Mazda Miata with fully adjustable suspension added will come with around 5.6 front springs and 3.4 rear. I will move the front to around 10, just past the middle and the rear to around 7 or 8. Again, a wide range of spring rates will work in GT5, so choosing your range will depend on two factors. First, what tires do you intend to use? My general rule, softer tires can handle harder springs and harder tires need softer springs. Second, how much do you want to use spring rates to balance the car’s oversteer/understeer vs. changes to LSD and anti-roll bars. I am having success with correcting understeer by softening the front springs and raising the rear. And, to correct oversteer, raising front and/or lowering rear. I have not experience the backward settings that some tuners have mentioned. For me, springs work as the in-game describes.

    Dampers are listed in this section, with springs, because they work side by side. I can’t understand why the game has such high damper settings (most cars come with 8/8) as the starting point and such low spring rates. This is a big reason why so many street cars in the game handle so crappy without tuning them. PD seems to have spent so much time with springs, yet just slapped in some values for dampers.

    The way I tune the dampers in GT5 is to set dampers relative to your chosen spring rates. In the Miata example above, with front springs at 10.0, I would set extension to 7 (just higher than half way) and compression to 5 (just lower than half way). For road racing, a shock should compress easier than extend to keep the car from bouncing. Also, if springs and dampers are set too far away from each other, either the spring will over power the dampers (springs too high) or the dampers will over power the springs (dampers set too high). Either is a bad situation, so keep them in the same area across the scale.

    A split between damper compression and extension can also be useful for tuning the front/rear balance of the car. Still keeping the spring rate between compression and extension, I will use splits of 1, 2 and 3, for road racing and higher splits for rally dirt/snow. A split of one (i.e., ext 6 and comp 5) will allow that end of the car to compress during braking, then rebound quickly producing a short period of increased grip mid-corner. A split of three (i.e., 7 ext / 4 comp) will keep that end of the car compressed for a longer period of time after braking and hold mid corner grip longer through the corner. So if I have a car with understeer (first I adjust LSD and ARBs) I will set the split between damper compression and extension at 3 on the front and 1 on the rear. This will produce a quick rebounding rear, thus less mid corner rear grip, more rotation and less understeer. I do the exact opposite for a car that is over steering.

    Ride Height – As a general rule, I drop ride height, but I don’t slam. The suspension does need some room movement to work. Slamming the car to its lowest can negate some of the advantages of springs, dampers, anti-roll bars, etc. Ride height also needs to be set relative to spring rates. On the bumpier, elevation change tracks mentioned above, I like zero ride height or maybe -5. Everywhere else I tend to lower half or a little more of the available drop. That is my general rule, but if I change to comfort tires, I will soften spring rates, dampers and anti-roll bars, so ride height needs to come back up a bit. On racing softs with stiffer springs, I tend to push the ride height pretty low, but never slammed. I have tried slammed settings and the cars just get unforgiving. Clip one curb or enter a corner a little whoopty and you’re in the weeds. I’m just not a big fan of the slammed ride height.

    I have tested high front/low rear and the opposite, but with all of the suspension settings mentioned above set properly, I don’t need it. My cars are much faster after taking the time and care to fine tune these first four settings, and then set ride height. People are producing undeniable results that wild ride height splits can reduce understeer, but I think it will only get them so far. I truly believe that my tuning method produces cars with massive corner speed that are drivable and consistent. I am finding that in full rooms online, I need to back down some of my top five settings to calm the cars down a bit – sometimes with lots of oversteer in full rooms, without using ride height splits. I will not rag on someone for using the ride height split. It is in the game and if it helps someone to be faster they should use it. Just please stop demanding that “settings are backward and everyone knows it” because not everyone on GT Planet agrees.

    Transmission – I honestly haven’t done enough testing with the transmission. I haven’t tried the slider trick either. I tend to adjust top speed for the longest straight on the track. I also leave a bit of room under the rev limiter for drafting, if I am racing online with tough opponents. If I am in a room where I tend to qualify first and expect to lead most of the race, I will push closer to redline under no draft. The only other adjustment that I make to the transmission is to second and third gears. All others seem to be pretty evenly spaced. I just look at the picture and try to evenly space 2nd and 3rd between 1st and 4th. Maybe I could be a tick faster if I actually attempted to test this area of tuning? Who knows? For now, try my method and the slider tricks mentioned on GT Planet and let me know if I am leaving time on the table.

    MILD ADJUSTMENT SETTINGS
    More modest gains with these settings and there is a wider range of acceptable adjustment. Just get these settings close and you’ll still be fast. For me, fine tuning of these adjustments normally produce small gains in speed or reduced lap time. Again, I spend time with these settings on cars that I really like, changing one variable at a time at relatively small increments. These are listed in rank order of effectiveness to gain lap time.
    1. Brake Balance
    2. Camber
    3. Downforce
    4. Rear Toe
    5. Front Toe
    6. Tires – mismatched front/rear


    Brake Balance – PD changed something in the behavior of brake balance from GT4 to GT5. In GT4, I was able to use this setting to get the car loose on entry by using trail braking down to the apex. Trail braking is a bit less effective in GT5 and seems more dependent on LSD deceleration than on brake balance. I use brake balance to do one thing; get rid of red front tires under heavy braking. If both front tires are turning red, the brake bias is off. Adjust more rear bias and less front until the red tires go away. I find some car are very well balanced at 5/5, especially the Japanese GT cars. In fact, most of the race cars work well with front/rear settings within three numbers of each other (4/6, 4/7, etc.). Many street cars need a much larger split. Look through my tunes and you will see settings all the way up to 2/10. The split is the important thing. No need to keep adjusting once the double red tire situation is solved.

    Brake balance can also be used to help reduce the situation where only one front tire is turning red on corner entry, the outside front tire. Many other tune settings can also be used to help solve one red front tire (anti-roll bars, springs, dampers, ride height, camber, LSD, etc.) so I don’t often call on brake balance to help solve this problem. I will cover more on the subject of solving red tire issues in a future trouble shooting guide.

    Camber – I placed the camber setting low on the tune effectiveness list not because it isn’t important, but because a wide range of settings can be fast. With Camber, I seem to only be able to shave a tenth of a second, maybe two with the perfect camber settings. For this reason, you will see numbers rounding to 5’s in most of my posted “quick tunes.” Only on cars that I tend to spend much time with do I fine, fine tune camber to the 0.1 measure. I don’t focus as much on whether the front needs 2.0, 2.5 or 3.0. I find more corner speed gain by setting a difference between front/rear. There seems to be a sweet spot for camber to maximize grip, but I don’t always want maximum grip on both ends of the car. The rear needs to rotate on most cars. On cars like the Yellow Bird, the rear needs more grip. The key is to start with a basic setting like 2.0 front/rear, then adjust one end of the car at a time looking for that car’s sweet spot. After driving 2.0 front/rear I then increase front to 2.5 and drive again. Then 3.0 front, then 3.5 front and take note of my corner speeds and front/rear balance through the corners. Set the front to the fastest you found and then move to the rear. Try 2.5 rear and 1.5 rear and note which produced faster corner speeds and a good balance. I wish GT5 had programmed tire temps into the game so that we would have a better indicator of the proper camber settings, but they didn’t. So setting camber in GT5 will always be trial and error.

    As far as camber’s effect on braking distance, I have not seen increased stopping distances with high camber settings. I don’t think I have one tune posted at over 3.5 camber, so that’s all I have tested. I saw little to no brake distance change between 1.0 and 3.5, but others may have done more testing in this area. I will defer to the other tuners who have invested the time to do side-by-side testing.

    New camber testing thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=244798

    Downforce – Some say that it is best to max out both front and rear. Yet I also read many of those same people complaining about difficulties reducing understeer. Hmmmm. I fell for the maxed out hype during the tuning completions earlier this year and believe that I hurt my chance at winning because of it. No more. I am back to my method. I max the front setting on every car. The loss in top speed is minimal and completely offset by the increased turning ability and corner speed. You cannot test the downforce effect on top speed from a standing start. You have to test from apex throttle application, off the corner, then down the full straight. If you can exit the corner at 5mph faster with a tune, then you will be 10 mph faster by the end of most straights. Therefore, I always max out the front. Rear settings then become another tool to change the car’s front/rear balance. My starting point is usually rear set around 10 numbers higher than front, then test from there. Check out some of my tunes and you’ll see where I have landed.

    Rear Toe – I view this as a fine tune. A range of settings can work so I just get these in the ballpark. The basics for this setting are increase rear toe in and the rear will be more planted. Decrease rear toe or move to negative numbers, the rear will rotate more. Or said another way, higher number equals more straight line stability and more chance for understeer; lower number (or negative) equals more turning ability and more chance for oversteer. On FR cars I tend to use a small amount of positive rear toe for stability from mid corner to exit. On FF cars I always use negative toe, sometimes up to -0.50, but usually around -0.25. For MR and RR cars, I use a more significant amount of rear toe, 0.25 to 0.35 or higher if needed for stability.

    Front Toe – Also a fine tuning tool, front toe seems to have an effect more mid-corner to exit, once the car sets, or once the initial weight transfer has happened. I use this, along with rear toe to balance traction mid corner to exit. I like negative front toe on almost all cars in GT5. I have played with zero and positive front toe only on really tricky cars like the Yellow Bird, McLaren MPC-12 and Viper ACR. Negative front toe tends to increase mid corner front grip, more chance of oversteer. Positive front toe tends to decrease mid corner front grip, more chance for understeer.

    Tires – Only two subjects to cover on tires. First is front/rear balance. I have experienced that the front/rear balance of a good tune will not change by changing all four to harder or softer tires. I wrote, good tune. In my early tuning in GT5, I would start with the tires I intended to race with (sport soft for street cars and racing soft for race cars). Soft tires can mask a balance problem within a tune. The extra grip from the tires may only turn the tire heat indicators white, but not to red. It can be difficult to identify an issue with the tune if no tires are turning red. Over the past three months I have change the way I tune and use a couple of compounds harder tire to build the initial tune. I now tune most street cars on sport hard tires and then switch to sport softs when it’s time to go racing. For race cars I tune on racing hard tires and then switch to racing softs for race time. Using this method isn’t so much about lap time saving, but more about balancing to a more even tire wear. Plus, if I enter an online race that requires a harder tire, my car’s balance will already be optimized for it.

    Second, there are times when I will mismatch tire compounds between front and rear. For endurance races with pit stops, it is important to stretch tire wear as far as possible. On some cars, I have tuned a very fast lap time tune, but it will wear out one set of tires first, either front or rear. If it is a small difference in wear I can give a little on corner speed tuning and balance the car a bit differently. In some cases, the car just won’t come around with fine tuning. In these instances I will put one compound harder tire on the trouble end of the car. Some rebalancing of the tune may be necessary.

    Closing – This is how I tune in GT5. I hope that this topic has provided you with a few ideas on how to make cars handle better for your driving style. People are entitled to their opinions and I expect a few to disagree with some of the tuning statements that I have made above. That is a good thing. Debate is healthy. It would be easy to take shots at one line of copy from above, but I challenge that fine tuning is complex and one change can affect others. I welcome other tuners to lay out their method. I think the community will have respect for those who attempt to teach others, not just post tunes.

    For those who are finding my tuning garage useful, feel free to try my tunes then send me a PM telling me how the car is behaving for you. You may use a different controller or have a much different driving style and the tune may need some adjustments to fit you. I will do my best, time permitting during my SCCA racing season, to get back to you with fine tuning advice. Does the car understeer or oversteer? Which tires are turning red? I will need to know the car’s behavior in four key areas:
    1. Under braking
    2. From turn in down to the apex
    3. Mid-corner
    4. From throttle application to corner exit/track out
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  5. HangDC4

    HangDC4

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    122
    Cool, I'll give that Ford ST tune a go and see how it is
     
  6. Adrenaline

    Adrenaline

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    You should make a way, to let us know which file it what.
    I'm not a fan of downloading a random PDF just to see what car it's for.
     
  7. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Good thought
     
  8. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    New tunes for the Seasonal Events 5.

    VW Schwimmwagen '42
    Peugeot 207 Gti '07
    TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00
    Alfa Fomeo 8C '08
    Merc-Benz CLK TC '00
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    4,801
    Location:
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    Added Ford GT '05 to pdf4 in first post above. This is now one of my favorite cars.
     
  10. Lusitano

    Lusitano

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    141
    Follow your start configuration tips, I see that no RR cars there, you can tell to us some advice in this matter, or your MR car settings can work on RR cars initially?
     
  11. Mcjoz88

    Mcjoz88

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    What about brake balance? Or is that to be adjusted how it says is recommended in the help section in the actual game?
     
  12. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I will buy one and tune it. What car would be best for this? The Ruf Yellow Bird? That one was a monster in GT4, but I was able to tame it. What RR car is most popular in GT5?
     
  13. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I treat break balance as a fine tune. I seem to be able to get the car 90% of the way there by spending time with the LSD. I also don't slam on the brakes. I ease into the brakes, all the way to full. I would guess that it takes me half a second to bottom out the brakes.

    When I do fine tune the brakes, I follow the game suggestions. Higher rear if you want the car to turn in more during trail braking and higher front if the car is really loose at turn in.
     
  14. Lusitano

    Lusitano

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    141
    Thanks for your reply, maybe exist more cars that I can't remember for now, but we have the the RUF RGT '00, Alpine A310 1600VE '73, Alpine A110 1600S '73(maybe this one), DMC DeLorean S2 '04, Yellow bird, etc..., all this ones are RR.
    Thanks
     
  15. Mcjoz88

    Mcjoz88

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    183
    Location:
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    Alright, thanks! Yeah I tend to mash the brake button when I approach a corner/turn, and then sort of ease off of it when I feel I'm slowing down enough...

    Anyway, thanks for this topic, so far I've used your guides to tune about 7 cars, including some old muscle, like the 69 Camaro, 2010 Camaro SS, Mustang GT(premium one in new car dealership), and a couple other of my favorite cars. Just by doing that starting point setup of the LSD, and the suspension settings, I could already feel the difference, in a good way. I'm going to spend more time with my cars though and try and find an all around setting for each, so I don't have to tune them differently for different tracks.

    So thanks again man! I was looking for something like this, to help me learn how to tune the cars!
     
  16. buziii

    buziii

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    365
    Motor City - I've been using your simple guidelines for a while now, because your philosophy meets my needs. I'm not an expert tuner and don't want to be, but I want to learn some basics and possibly add a little more as I go. Thanks for your useful and simple guidelines and starting points.

    I'm finding I usually need to use higher LSD accel settings than you, especially with higher powered RWD cars. I'm a controller using, X-masher for throttle so I have to be careful accelerating out of turns and often find myself counter-steering (if not spinning) too much which slows me down.

    At least now, thanks to your LSD advice, I adjust the LSD instead of just buying softer tires and increasing the TCS. I think I'm understanding the LSD much better now, but the suspension understanding is coming much more slowly. If I start with your recommended starting points, I'm not real comfortable knowing how to adjust from there. Any additional simple suspension advice? How to know which suspension settings to adjust and when?
     
  17. MetroGS

    MetroGS

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    313
    Location:
    England
    Thank you sir I used your Corvette zr1 setup to do the seasonal events!! thanks again sir!
     
  18. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Thanks for all of the kind comments. Just looking to fill a need that I thought wasn't there. I try to share my tunes, knowing that you will need to tweak for your controller and driving style. I make my tunes for me and if they don't work for you... eh.

    After LSD, I have found the biggest gains in suspension tuning to be springs/dampers, sway bars and toe. After that, ride height and brake settings. The tuning guides do a good job at describing all of these. The only thing that I do not think I have seen anywhere else is my method for setting the dampers in relationship to the springs. If my springs are set half-way across the available range, I put the extention just to the right of the spring (higher) and the compression just to the left of the spring (lower). Want more grip on one end of the car, make the compression to extention margin wider. You'll see in some of my tunes where the front damping numbers are three digits apart and the rear may be only one digit apart. This is to try to hold the nose down a little coming off of the corner. I need to post more rally car setups because I really lower the spring rate and widen the damping numbers, still in relation to where the springs are.

    The final area, camber, I really can't figure out what it does in the game. Many, many tuner guides tell you what camber is supposed to do in the real world, but I haven't been able to get any noticable gain from camber adjustments in game. Maybe I haven't spent enough time there??? You'll notice that most of my tunes have very similar camber settings and they purely are set by what made me feel good at the time. I know that in the real world, my race cars like between 2.5 and 3.0 front and 2.0 to 2.8 rear. The game... who knows?
     
  19. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Thank you. I will be using this car a ton, so look for more fine tunes from me in the future. I also want to build an online tune for this car.

    At Indy road course, now with maxed out hp on my ZR1, I did notice that I had a bit of high speed push in Indy (oval) turn one. I haven't touched the aero on this car yet. I'm sure there will be gains there. Also, had a little bit of front brake lock right at turn in, so a small adjustment to the brakes may be necessary.

    Love that car though.
     
  20. buziii

    buziii

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    365
    So if I start with your standard set-up for an FR car and find I tend to oversteer exiting the corner, I assume you would suggest first increasing the LSD accel? That's what I tend to do since I now understand how that works better than I do the suspension adjustments. But, how far would you go with the LSD adjustment before changing suspension settings, and what suspension settings would you start with? Again, keeping it as simple as possible!
     
  21. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I go as far as I can with LSD to get the car to work well in the majority of corners on a number of tracks. I use suspension tunes to help solve a specific problem. For example, the two hair pin corners on Nurburgring GP/D need special attention.

    For what you have described in my FR tune and oversteer on exit, increase the accel LSD first. Then I would play with adding rear toe in, soften rear springs/dampers, soften rear sway bar or a combination of these settings.
     
  22. buziii

    buziii

    Messages:
    365
    And if that doesn't work, throw on some Racing Softs and crank up the Driving Aids!

    Thanks again for your helpful and simple advice!
     
  23. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

    Messages:
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  24. buziii

    buziii

    Messages:
    365
    Here's some good feedback for you. I was playing with my M3 GTR Race Car at the Nurb GP/D race in the seasonal races, and was able to do a combination of working out some of the over-steering and just learning to drive it better.

    I ran a 1:29.5 best, 1:31.4 average over the 8 laps, which was good for me compared to the other runs I've made in this event. This was at 466 HP and racing medium tires.

    In my latest version, I had the LSD accel back up to 40 and increased the rear toe up to 0.25. Sometimes it's hard for me to tell how much of my improvement is tuning and how much is just driving it better, but I'm enjoying playing with the tuning with a better understanding.
     
  25. rjcobra

    rjcobra

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    104
    Really great tunes? Any plans to do a Minolta or a FGT?
     
  26. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    Been playing too much online and the seasonal events to get that far in A-Spec yet. I do have a formula car that I could start playing with and post. And, I could dig up some of my GT4 tunes for those cars to see if any of it translates?
     
  27. Mcjoz88

    Mcjoz88

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    183
    Location:
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    You think you could do a tune for the Dodge Viper GTS Coupe '02? I recently just bought that car and upgraded it, minus a wing(not a fan of putting gigantic humongous wings on cars that I think look better and sleeker without them, this viper being one of them), and I did your base tuning for the LSD and suspension, but I can't seem to adjust it correctly to battle the oversteer I am encountering.

    I did a test on the Nurburgring, and I can't seem to get the car to handle correctly. When I brake, after going around 100mph, the car seems to want to slide out right away. I tried adjusting the LSD more, specifically the deceleration setting, and it's feels like it's only slightly better...

    Pretty much, for me to get the car to handle properly around the Nurburgring, I have to keep the accelerator only slightly pressed, so as to not exceed 90mph, through the whole track, until I get to the straightaway...

    I use a Dualshock 3, if that makes a difference... I can't justify spending upwards of $150 for a controller for a video game. I have other priorities that come first...

    But yeah, I will keep messing around with the car and the tuning for now. If you have time and could try it as well, without a rear wing, and post your findings, I would appreciate it!

    Also, if I happen to figure it out, I will post back as well, with a tune of my own...
     
  28. Adrenaline

    Adrenaline

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    I don't have whatever is needed to read PDF files, so if anyone can copy/paste the Elise 111R tune for me, I'd like to add it to the other 7 I tested.
     
  29. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I have played with this car, but didn't post the tune because I wasn't completely happy with it. This is a very challenging car to tune. I will play with it again soon and post a tune.
     
  30. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    I can email you the Microsoft Excel files that I created these in. I didn't spend much time with the Elise, just LSD and a little suspension.

    The car that I have spent the most time with is my RM Corvette ZR1. I'll send that too. Feel free to review.